Knife is not a self defence weapon

Joined
Sep 9, 2001
Messages
138
If a man attacks you with a weapon that has an overall length of 8.5" and you had a weapon of 26" and you could carry it legally how has the advantage?

I am surprised that so many people carry a knife as a primary weapon I recently got myself one of those ASP batons. 26" long I carry it in my back pocket and recently experimented with it to see how will it compere with a knife.

I asked my self defence instructor who knows a lot about knife fighting to attack me with a knife I used my baton to nock the knife out of his hand and delivered some good blows to his knees he was unable to walk so if this was a real life encounter I could walk away without him being able to chase me. I was surprised as he usually wins any fight I challenge him to. Also I was thinking that if you use a knife you will have to kill or cause serious damage to him but with a baton you can enable a person without killing him. This doesn't mean that I will not carry a knife it gust that I want to have more options with the stuff I carry.

P.S. what I meant when I seed that knife is not a self defence weapon I meant that it can be used only in offensive manner, cutting and stabbing and has limited blocking capacity.

So what is your thoughts on the subject?
 
I'll agree that the ASP is a fine weapon and certainly has its place. However, to generally say that an ASP is always better than a knife or will always beat a knife is not true. You should look at the totality of any given situation.

For example, if you have a fully extended ASP and the other person has a knife in hand and you start out at "duelling distance", you may get in a few good shots with the ASP before they close on you, if they're able to close at all. Try it when you're surprised by a sudden rush and/or concealed knife draw at medium/close range and your ASP is closed and in your back pocket (a realistic scenario). The results may be dramatically different. I demonstrate this all the time with police officers.
 
What a knife-wielder must do when confronted with a stick-wielding opponent is get inside the arc of the stick; this is the classic strategy for dealing with an opponent whose weapon has longer range. The stick wielder must also recognize this and attempt to keep his attacker outside that arc, where the greater range of his weapon makes a difference.

To defend one's self is to use force against someone who has attacked you first; cutting, slashing, piercing, or otherwise exposing the blood of your assailant to the atomosphere is to engage in self-defense.

Many people carry a knife for self-defense because it is not legal for them to carry an expanding baton or other sap- or billy club-like object. Many others choose to carry a knife rather than a stick because at extremely close range, the knife is more effective than any sort of club.

I agree with Short Bus' comments; it is best to be familiar with the tactics and strategies that apply to the full continuum of force and range of personal weapons. Dismissing any of them out of hand as "not defensive" or inferior to any other of them is to court a rude awakening.
 
If you want to get a different perspective on defensive use of knives, you may want to make a duplicate post for Bram over in the Spyderco forum. As I understand it, that is one of the principal roles of his Gunting model.
 
Your greatest self-defense weapon is your mind, your knowledge and your understanding of the strengths and limitations of your tools.

Let me take the example you gave and change it slightly. Yes you were able to stop your instructor in an open area where you could effectily deploy your baton. However, let's change the scenario...

try the same thing in between two parked cars.

Oops...kinda complicates things doesn't it?

I have a saying that "A battle is usually won by the side that can kill most effectively at the greatest distance allowed by the environment or circumstances." That is not however always the case with self-defense. You need to know what tool to use at what range. As someone crashing through your defenses or starting out from point blank range can seriously affect the effectiveness of your tools (we call it understanding range)

A baton works most effectively where you have room to swing. This is not to say it cannot be deployed in close quarters, but that is not its strength. And although usable, it might not be enough to overcome another weapon's strengths in that range.

An example is in my misspent youth I was in a poolhall leaning over to take a shot. A guy approached me from my blindside and started talking to me about the knife on my hip. As I was straightening up he flipped open the knife that he was holding in his hand.

Even though I had a knife on my hip and a pool cue in my hands, I didn't have the time to deploy the former, and I couldn't generate enough force to prevent myself from getting stabbed by the latter. The guy was just too close and the threat too immediate. A pool cue is a distance weapon. I dropped the pool cue, grabbed his wrist and groin and picked him up and slammed him repeatedly onto the pool table until he dropped the knife. Lest you think I am a superman, terror gave me the strength of ten They threw him out, and I went into the bathroom and threw up -- ahh that ol' adrenaline rush.:barf:

So yes, under certain circumstances the baton would be a better self-defense weapon, under others it would not. It depends on the circumstances and level of threat that you are facing.

Marc MacYoung
www.diac.com/~dgordon
 
All I have to say on this one is I will take an ASP baton from a bad guy anyday over a knife; in other words I would rather face the baton.
I will give you that option anyday and I bet the outcome will not be the same.

My old friend Mr. Macyoung has decided to stop by and I almost always agree with him.
Marc I hope you are well, take care!
 
Not only do we hope you are doing well, Marc, but that Diana is doing well also.

student
 
The knife moves...the knife will not be so easily knocked from someone's grasp unless you are fighting someone who is clueless.

Everyone knows something about knifefighting...your Instructor knew something about knife work yet his student was able to do that? Seems rather odd, don't you think?

It's not the knife or the baton, per se. The brain that is working it.

As Mr. Caracci pointed out. I'd rather face a baton any day of the week, those little knives, damn'em, they sure are fast in skilled and unskilled hands...and not everyone is doing a demo either...

Not much you can extrapolate from a demo...except...that is was a demo.
 
Ok first I use to do a lot of fancying so I was able to nock the blade out of my instructors hand because I've had so much fencing experience. I love knives but the way I was trained knife is a killing instrument so if my opponent is a drunken moron I can teach him a lesson in manners with my baton without killing him with my knife, or if it's kill or be killed situation I can go for a my knife as it is a more of an offensive weapon. It's just that if I am in rather open environment I'll go fore a baton if there is less space or situation calls for a different weapon I'll have more appropriate weapon such as my trusty knife.

Most of the fights I got into are with people how were drunk and were waving a broken bottle and I don’t rely want to kill that moron I want to help a friend who works in the place as one of the security. So as you can see in my situation a knife is important but a baton is also a very important tool. :p
 
> Most of the fights I got into are with people how were drunk and were waving a broken bottle

Why are you hanging out with drunken, violent people? Seems the best bet is to avoid the situation entirely.
 
With that many drunk idiots, sooner or later one of them will "take you out", unless you have eyes behind your head or some really good backup.

Those expandable batons are a felony in California to carry. Furthermore, on "Real TV" (what can I say, I'm a TV junkie) I saw some cops who tried hitting a guy with those expandable batons in a cramped office and it didn't even hurt him since the expandable baton is rather flimsy compared to a solid wood baton. I'm no expert, but those expandable batons seem too flimsy to do jabs, chokes and arm-locks, which are real advantages for a solid stick. Almost twenty years ago when I was an MP in the Army, all we used was solid wood batons and they sure did a number on anyone. I didn't see many guys (drunk or otherwise) recover after a few whacks, jabs or a choke hold. I guess an ASP is better than nothing as long as you know its limitations, IMHO.

As a plain, old civilian, I prefer my Spydie Chinook because it is so versatile.
 
Ummmm guys, I don't know of any state that using a knife on someone isn't considered use of lethal force. And that means it falls under the restrictions and limitation of when you are legally justified to use it.

Having some experience with drunk wrangling, barroom brawling and judicious use of lethal force I can tell you that seldom do they meet. More often than not whittling on some obnoxious drunk who wants to punch your lights out is not legally sanctioned...and will result in you taking showers with heavily tattooed guys. There is just not enough of a threat posed to warrant the use of a lethal force weapon on such a character. And that includes using the closed knife on his pointy little head like a yawra stick. Against that kind of attacker, you need different tools and tactics.

Now it just so happens that I know this fella named CJ Caracci who could give you an excellent overview on a thing called the "use of force continum" that might help clarify things for you, especially when it comes to when you are allowed to use lethal force - or even non-lethal self-defense measures.

I would like to thank everyone for their kind words, my wife and I are doing fine (although teaching my teenaged stepdaughter how to drive has given me a few new gray hairs in my beard). A bit of good news is I was recently invited to join the executive board of the International Police Defense Tactics Association, an organization that has been putting me in Europe quite a bit over the last few years.
 
You're right. I simply rambled off the topic.
Use of a knife on any situation short of a life and death struggle will get you locked up. A drunken fool in a bar is usually not a life and death situation if he is unarmed and you are a bouncer in that place. I realize less than lethal force is necessary for these types of encounters.

I really meant to say I like my folder for a variety of reasons and my current job gives me no reason to carry an ASP or other baton/billy-club. Self defense with a knife is a fairly low priority since I am pretty good at avoiding trouble but ready nevertheless.

BTW, speaking of collapsible clubs has anyone heard of one that uses some thick telescoping spring thingies? I read in Fairbarn's book that they were extremely cruel to use on people (which makes me want one...).
 
Great to hear from you Mr. MacYoung! I've enjoyed reading many of your books.

As for the knife vs. the baton, I would have to agree that I would rather face the baton than the knife. I've done some simulations where I've tried to disarm a guy with a knife empty-handed, and I often end up getting "cut" one way or another. I hope I never need to do it in real life.

But then there is the amount of force you are legally justified in using against a bad guy, and rarely is lethal force necessary. If the batons were legal in CA I'd carry one AND a knife so I would have a choice of using the baton for the overwhelming majority of less-than-lethal force confrontations I would get in to, and the knife for the remainder. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Jim Grover (another personal security expert) talks a lot about having less-than-lethal gear (pepperspray, batons, flashlights, etc.) to compliment your firearm or blade so you always have an option.

Of course by having good awareness and Street E&E, chances are you will never need any of that stuff.
 
A slightly different perspective on whether a knife is an effective
defensive weapon:
My wife, despite my best efforts, does not want to learn how to use the guns I have available. She has decided that the possibility of accidently shooting one of our kids if she was in a panicky state was too great. She is adament about this, but does not oppose my gun ownership. After I bought my Busse Steel Heart II, I would come home from business trips and find it lying by the bed. I gave her some basic instruction, and my Busse lived by the bed and rode between her car seats until I bought her an Ontario Marine fighting knife to get my SHII back.
An enraged mamma bear with a razor-sharp 9" Busse blade - not as effective as the 12 gauge but a lot better than bare hands.
 
Ummmmm.....if I just GOTTA hang out with the BAD crowd and feel that I need a weapon (not have one, NEED one), I'm bringing my gun (of course I'll have my three knives and empty hand training to accompany the Glock 23). It's sort of like I've heard a few veteran officers say, "If you know you're going to have to pull a weapon out and point it at someone, grab the biggest damned one you can find (referring to the shotgun).
The ASP(I've not had the pleasure of using mine yet) I have seen used against a guys forearms and another guys legs. It was as effective as it could be, considering the targets. If you use a blunt instrument, aim for bone, it works better (unless you are an LEO, then you are a little more restricted).
 
My very first visit here. Very enlightening. But if I read this right, YOU would not issue deadly force (if U had it available)against a DRUNK wielding a KNIFE???? Is that how it is supposed to read:confused: I hope not. IMO, all 2 cents of it, any person who is holding an edged weapon is gonna get double-tapped and the LEGAL and MORAL standard can be decided when there is a more STERILE enviornment. I sure as hell am NOT gonna end up slashed to hell just cause some Drunk was, well DRUNK. Thanks for the super info, be safe....wolf
 
Some questions you may want to ask yourself is what if your fighting someone who rushes you, with his left semi extended arch down knife hand holding the blade close to his side. Sure you can wack the guy on the arm and if your lucky hit him with all your might in the sweet spot before he passes the arc; but by that time its too late he on top of you and the knife is in your throat. Trying to stop a guy who got a some steam behind him with a baton doesn't very well. In fact I think if some guy was rushing you, and you had a knife, while you maybe able to give him a fatal blow right away. You might end up getting cut never the less.
 
Personally, I would rather have too many options to choose from than too few. I carry 2 pocket knives, the type depends on what I am doing that day, one in or clipped to each pocket, I have a screw driver, about 15" oal, in my drivers side door, and I have multiple Khukris laying about my apt along with alot of martial arts equiptment.

If a situation warrents it, go for range. If in my car, and sombody attacks me or somehow attempts to carjack me, I will pull my screwdriver, and depending on the situation at hand I can use lethal or non lethal force. If I begin to grapple and the screwdriver is out of range, go for a knife or a strangulation technique...hand to hand is lethal, he could be going for a knife too and you would never see it coming.

You guys have stimulated my interst, who makes the best Collapsable baton, and how legal are they in Tx?

Also, remember a baton can be lethal too. A sharp blow to the temple, or trachea... they're gone.
 
Ok first I don’t go killing people every time the law justify's it, if I kill some one it will be because I justified it to myself. Mr wolfmann601 I am not a religious man and I don’t consider killing a terrible thing but I would kill only out of necessity e.g. "if I will not kill I shall be killed and if I can avoid taking a life so much better." Maybe some people hear have different ideas on the subject I'll be happy to here them.

Hay Mr hannibal I never taught of that and this is exactly why I started this post and gave it such tittle so that people would try to prove my wrong and I could analyse my system and change it so that it is more fleeceable. Well the good way of preventing the situation you described is to have a knife in my over hand so if the baton won't stop my attacker the knife will. I'll start to train in a knife baton combination as well as in the two different weapons separately.

Mr SamuraiDave have you ever herd of anyone being killed by such blow to the temple? I am interested is it smoothing that happens often?
 
Back
Top