Knife retention in a fist fight?

fulloflead

fulloflead

Joined
May 3, 2002
Messages
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I have a little bit of fear that if I were ever in a FIST (hand-to-hand-only)-fight my opponent may snatch my EDC that's clipped to my pocket to use against me.

Let me back up and explain...

I currently carry a MT auto clipped to my RF pocket, a Emerson Wave Commander that I carry in my LB pocket that I can quickly wave from there, a cool little Snody neck knife and little Benchmade Mini Mel Pardue Auto with the safety on hidden in my wasteband. I also carry a little Spyderco MeerKat in my RB pocket for more PC usage in mixed company.

So far, in fact ever since Junior High School, I've been able to solve any face-to-face problems with words or by walking away as my instructors have taught me ever since a very young age.

(I don't currently study martial arts but I remember very much of it.) But I don't have any problem with the idea of defending myself or my family.

I worry that if I ever DO get into hand-to-hand combat with someone; perhaps during a ground fight, that my opponent might see and snatch out one of the knives I have clipped to my pockets.

Obviously, there are several problems that arise in such a case. First of all, I'd HATE to get in a knife fight of any kind (though I think I probably could win one against an average attacker). I wouldn't look forward to the injuries involved even in a win. Second, if I were carrying fewer that day, I'd hate to fight against my primary knife with my much-smaller backup knife. And then there's....

Third, I can totally see where if I was getting the best of an opponent how they might grab a knife off me and out of anger not consider the ramifications of using a weapon against me in a desperate attempt to save their pride. I wouldn't like to be in a situation where I had to use a weapon against someone who wasn't thinking straight and made a bad decision out of rage.

I've considered carrying fewer knives but that would leave me at a disadvantage since I'll ALWAYS have an EDC clipped to my RF pocket anyway and I've considered carrying a regular folder rather than the safety-switch auto in my wasteband but my safety BM auto is VERY comfortable and smooth and doesn't totally eat my pants back there like other knives do.

Maybe I'm just paranoid. I'm reasonably sure I'm fast enough to draw one of my backups if someone were to get my EDC or my #1 backup out of one of my pockets in time to save my life, but...
the outcome probably wouldn't be pretty for anyone involved.

Has anyone thought about any of these things? I'm sure some of you have, and some of the well-trained people here might have some answers. I'd like to hear them.
 
i'll say this: while i'm sure it has happened to somebody at one point, i'd figure the odds of a person acquiring your knife before you had a chance to react would be slim. on top of that, since you're carrying only an auto in your RF pocket (probably the more likely area for an opponent to see/reach for), it may take them several precious moments to figure out it's usage, buying you some time to RLH or ram some backup in their gut. if they've got it figured out immediately, odds are they're packing some steel themselves, and you can worry about that.

i usually only carry one knife, in the RF pocket, and at best two (another in the LF pocket). if the unfortunate were to occur, i'd make my best effort at pulling my backup out as talented and ceremoniously as possible. the intended effect would be to show the idiot that i know how to handle my blades, and he'd better think twice, or consider sopping up portions of himself with a sponge.

of course, there's nothing wrong with screaming your head off and running for help. keeping alive beats keeping a knife (and trying to save face) any day.

abe m.
 
I guess you'll just have to flatten them with the first punch :D

If you don't intend to go for a knife in a big hurry at the first sign of trouble, then maybe you shouldn't be showing so much easy-to-grab metal. It's not a bad idea to have a (defensive) knife where you can get at it quickly, but what are all those other little hostages doing sticking out like that?
 
FoL Have you given any thought to carrying 3 guns instead:confused:
 
FofL,

I don't know what you do for a living, or where you hang out, etc. but where I live and in my normal day to day life, I don't get into any fights (fist or otherwise)...don't even come close. You may be a little overboard carrying all those knives.

Peace dude,

Brian
 
Doesn't that get a little heavy...? I have problems carrying my wallet loose and a 7-oz. folders at times, especially when I need to run because they slap against my legs (I wear baggy shorts).

Also, do you ever go nuts making sure all your knives are in the right pockets/positions? Drives me crazy when something goes missing in the morning.

Edited for egregious spelling mistakes.
 
I'm a firm believer that one shouldn't carry a knife (or knives) as a primary or secondary means of self-defense. Unless. . .you're in the military, law enforcement, etc.

A knife is a tool !

Those that whip it out. . .typically aren't trained in using it as a defensive (or offensive) weapon. Yeah, you can whip it out in an attempt to frighten your opponent. But, you don't know your opponents capabilities. . .and you run the risk of having your opponent disarm you and show you something that you will regret.

If you're in an area that requires you to defend yourself. . .you're in an area that you shouldn't be in. RUN away !

If you're in a confrontation that requires you to defend yourself. . .WALK (or RUN) away !

Think of your wife and kids !

Not too many combatants look specifically for possible weapons that the other may carry. I do. And if that person is carrying. . .my intent is to inflict as much damage and pain as possible. Simply. . .when someone is getting their butt kicked. . .there is no telling what they will do.

The chances of your opponent removing a clipped knife from your pocket. . .during a struggle. . .is very slim.

If someone were to remove a knife from you. . .you won't be quick enough to locate one of your other knives, remove it, deploy it and get into a defensive stance quick enough to protect yourself.

Keep in mind. . .the heat of the moment. . .and massive surges of adrinelin are strange things. . .especially if you've never trained specifically for those types of situations !

You have a greater chance of getting hit by lightening. . .than you getting into a knife fight. Unless, you place yourself in that situation.

Think of the consequences of a knife fight (legally, mentally and physically). . .maybe that will change your thinking a little. If not, shoot me an e-mail. . .and I'll tell you about some scars that I have.

Paranoid ? I'm thinkin'. . .just a little. ;)

Resume taking self-defense courses ! :)
 
A knife is used as a tool, may be a tool, but is classified in the state statutes as a weapon and so restricted to varying degrees dependant on the locale and jurisdiction.

There are no tool laws, there are knife laws under the dangerous weapons laws in each state.

I happen to carry a few folders with defense in mind, I also carry a gun for the same reason. I am often without the heat, but never without the knives, where legal to carry anything at all.

I work the streets in the private sector at the moment, if I'm in an area that requires me to defend myself, I'm doing my job. Not much chance of avoiding these areas for some of us.

If you have allowed your knife to be lifted from your person during an altercation you have allowed one into your inner circle where you face the greatest dangers.

I have thought about the consequences of a knife fight, don't want to there for it basically, then again it may find me whether I want it to or not.

My suggestion has always been that if you are going to carry a knife, or two for possible defense of your person, the least you can do is go get some competant training in it's use.

Those that carry one for defense and have no training in it's use will suffer greatly, in all liklihood, should the need arise to have to use it legally to defend with.

Would you carry a gun and then have no formal training in it's use to increase the chance of survival? Same goes with the knife as a defensive weapon. Get the training or suffer the consequences if you ever have to attempt to use it. When you are up to your butt crack in alligators, it's tough to remember the objective was to survive [ without some training prior in it's use ].

Brownie
 
FOL:

If I were you, I would ditch the autos and narrow my SD knives to no more than 2, preferably a matched set, both of which are also useable impact weapons (a pair of Guntings, TSEKs, AFCKs, etc). I say this about the autos because they are simply not reliable enough to rely on in a life-or-death situation - autos are neat, autos are fun, autos are collectible, but autos break more than manuals. If you are going to carry multiple SD knives, it just makes sense to me that they be the same knife - the knife that you train with, preferably with both hands, and a knife that allows both deadly and less-than-deadly force. If I had to defend myself, I would be in a pretty solid situation if I had an open Gunting in my strong hand, and a closed one in my weak hand.

Also, you shouldn't assume that you are going to be able to reach or deploy a knife clipped to your clothing. For example, if you are on your back, pushed against a wall, or clinched, you may not be able to access a knife in the vicinity of your back pocket, regardless of how fast you may be.

Utility Knives? Carry as many as your pants will hold up.
 
Originally posted by GigOne
I'm a firm believer that one shouldn't carry a knife (or knives) as a primary or secondary means of self-defense. Unless. . .you're in the military, law enforcement, etc.

A knife is a tool !
Click to expand...

Yes. A tool. Like a gun, f'rinstance.


Those that whip it out. . .typically aren't trained in using it as a defensive (or offensive) weapon.
Click to expand...

And probably aren't trained in H2H either, but when they need it they need it bad. It's better to bring a weapon to an unasked-for fight if you're untrained than to try to go it empty handed against whatever they brought with them.


If you're in an area that requires you to defend yourself. . .you're in an area that you shouldn't be in. RUN away !
Click to expand...

Yeah, unless you work there or live there or something assinine like that.


If you're in a confrontation that requires you to defend yourself. . .WALK (or RUN) away !

Think of your wife and kids !
Click to expand...

And hope they can run a lot faster than you can.

Sorry Gig, the advice you offer is not useful in far too many instances.

Pierre
 
Mr. Lead:

I think that you being a bit paranoid. I doubt if many BG's will try to take a knife out of your pocket. Unless you are in the military or law enforcement I think you should cut down on the number of knives you carry. Less knives = less chance of it being used against you. I think that what Esav said is right on the money.:cool: ;) :p
 
And probably aren't trained in H2H either, but when they need it they need it bad. It's better to bring a weapon to an unasked-for fight if you're untrained than to try to go it empty handed against whatever they brought with them.



Rubber Ducky,

I don't know what school of logic that comes from, but any weapon in untrained hands becomes an even greater hazard to the wielder as well. Fights don't happen like they do in the movies, most are very fast close-in melees, where a blade could easily cut/stab the wielder. Best bet is to run like hell.

fulloflead,

I come from the school of thought that says that the quantity or size of the knife(knives) is second to training and ability with it. With all of those blades on you, you're bound to wind up in legal trouble should you ever have to use one in a defensive situation. Just my .02

Jubei
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avoid ground fighting if you have a knife clipped to you. avoid ground fighting, period - unless you're in a ring, and your attacker's buddies can't kick you in the head while you're grappling.

if you must traverse a tough 'hood, carry the knife in your inside jacket pocket.

otherwise, keep your unarmed combat skills sharp, and no matter what - always pray ;)
 
Fulloflead,

First off, don't let the bad guys dictate your lifestyle. To be sure, they're out there, so don't run with them. As my daddy used to say, "Ich, get a haircut." No, no, wait, he used to say, "If you want to avoid getting hit by a train, stay off of the tracks."

To that end, stay out of saloons after 10:00 PM. Most of the fights in the modern world are initiated by drunken townies over spilled beer and women.

Next piece of advice, lose some of the metal. I know enforcers in bike clubs that carry fewer knives than you do. Carry a good knife, a TOOL, and save the hystrionics for the Rambo set. There are plenty of guys who do great flying side kicks, but my attorney will cut them down to jelly before they can scream 'hoo-yah.'

Sure, I'd like a CCW license, but I wouldn't go anywhere that I wouldn't go unarmed.
 
Well, I tend to carry a slip-joint (SAK, Stockman or trapper----one at a time mind you :) ) and also a lock blade for tougher cutting (safety for the fingers).

I gave up the thought long ago of carrying a knife only for self defense. I find myself needing good utility cutters quite often, so utility is what I have them for...and whittling when the mood strikes.

Anyways, just a thought on "staying away from bad places". Naturally that is a good idea, however one should keep in mind that it does not always matter where you are. A few years ago there was a lady killed in front of her children in the middle of the day....as she was leaving her doctors office. You dont have to be in a bad area for bad things to happen.

Carrying anything for self defense is a personal choice. Just dont figure that being in a "nice area" is all you need to stay safe.
 
Carry what you want as long as it is legal. Learn weapons retention. If someone grabs what you are holding (or if they grab part of you, for that matter) know how to break free. There are also techniques to keep someone from taking a weapon from its sheath and they can be applied to a knife in the pocket. A basic one is to pin their hand with one of your hands and attack them with the other. It is difficult to explain in writing. There are some people who are trained to frisk when grappling but they are rare and you should avoid ground fighting anyway.


You might want to post this question on Practical Tactical or Self Defense Forums.
 
Originally posted by Jubei

Rubber Ducky,

I don't know what school of logic that comes from, but any weapon in untrained hands becomes an even greater hazard to the wielder as well.
Click to expand...

Weapons aren't popular in combat because they make you a worse fighter. When you're forced to fight the greatest hazard is your opponent. Anything you can do to hasten his departure from your immediate area is a bonus. Cutting him often works.


Fights don't happen like they do in the movies, most are very fast close-in melees, where a blade could easily cut/stab the wielder. Best bet is to run like hell.
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Bullpoo. Running is a terrible option in many instances. You missed the pointed quote about "wife and kids"; what if you're with them? What if you're injured? What if you're slow? What if you're with your grandma? What if you are grandma?

Yeah yeah yah, all you freaking yay-hoos like to run out with the "the best way to avoid a punch is to not be there" advice, but if I'm there despite my best efforts, then what? You guys have nothing for that. Nothing. Not a damn thing.

You're just as bad as the freaking Mall Ninjas.

To the OP:

The best way to retain your knives in that sort of a situation is to draw them. Or at least one of them. If it's not a fight that you can avoid, you're probably justified. If it is a fight you can avoid, then see below.

If you decide to carry knives for self-defense, or any other weapons for that matter, IMO you have to forgo any penis measuring combats - most "street fights". Your responsibility is too great. If you want to fight "for fun", bar fights, etc., then you have to leave the toys at home. Again, IMO.

As you pointed out you haven't had to fight for a long time. Most fights, IME, are avoidable because it's about ego.

Pierre
 
This is when you THROW your knife, which then sticks straight into the heart of the evildoer and he goes down....like NOW!

Accompanied by a horrible grimace and a "NNNNGGGGGHHHHGGHH!"

:confused:
 
For all you "runners", here's a quote (sorry, don't know the original attribution, but it stands):

Sometimes "you can run, but you'll just die tired".

Pierre
 
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