Knife review / reviewing knives - Johnny Stout custom

M

Marvin Edgeworth

Joined
Nov 1, 1998
Messages
61
This is partially about a knife I recently purchased, but also partially about buying knives. I'm describing a knife, but also describing how I used some quality criteria set out by some folks MUCH more knowledgeable than I am. But I'm getting better! And reviews like this are one of the WAYS I'm getting better. Try it - you'll be surprised at how much you learn by doing something like this!

Knife Review - Johnny Stout 'Aristocrat' damascus fancy folder, purchased at the Las Vegas Classic Knife Show, 7 Feb 1999.
See at http://www.concentric.net/~jlstout/gallery.htm
Johnny's description:
The Aristocrat. A fancy Mastodon handled gentlemens folder with a 3 inch Damascus blade and Mokume bolsters. Dressed with a fileworked raised Titanium back spacer and built with anodized and jeweled Titanium frame and lock. Ideal for everyday carry, or to enhance that existing collection.
The only difference between this description and my knife is that my knife has damascus bolsters. Also, anyone who uses this knife for everyday carry has far, far different sensitivities than I do. Yes, I could use Irish linen as Kleenex. But I don't.

This knife is a liner-lock with a pretty conventionally-shaped drop-point blade in a conventionally-shaped handle. The design is conventional because it's clearly functional, but oh, my, what he did in craftsmanship on this knife must be seen to be fully appreciated. But I'll try to describe it anyway.
First the basics: The blade is 2.938 inches, with an overall length of 6.854 inches. This gives a blade-to-handle ratio of 75% (more on this later). The blade is of Devin Thomas high-contrast 1095/nickel damascus. The bolsters and spacer are Stout-made damascus, 1084/L6. The blade and the bolsters were etched with ferric chloride, and the blade contrast is really beautiful - very clear swirls, loops, and ellipses. The bolsters are slant-cut, from 3/4 " (top) to 1 1/4 " (bottom), with a decorative symmetrical slanted groove on the off-pivot side. The liners are deep purple anodized titanium, jeweled surface, visible front and back. The liner is milled at the point where you apply pressure to close the knife. The spacer is fully file-worked in a vine-and-thorn pattern. The scales are of ivory-colored mottled mammoth ivory. There is a right-hand thumb-stud, milled, and capped with a 3 mm ruby. The bolster on the stud-side has a slight ground concavity to make opening easy. The serial number is #719, which might mean this is the number of knives Johnny has made. The blade was hollow-ground on an 8" contact wheel, giving it a rather broad curve. It also comes with a very nice (leather? Vinyl?) zippered case with a fleece liner.
Now the intangibles. I'm going to discuss some things that I've tried with some of my other knives, sometimes with some disappointment. You might try some of these on some of your favorites. But then again, you may NOT wish to try this at home!
The knife opens up like it wants to. When it's closed, I can't shake it open (no gravity-knife - but I was surprised when I found how many of my OTHER knives I could partially open that way). When it's open it stays open - I gave it some pretty good whacks on the back, a' la' A. T. Barr liner-lock tests from rec.knives newsgroup.
When you swing the blade open very slowly using your fingers at the tip, it's totally smooth - no changes in pressure until you get very near the lock, no scratching or roughness at all. When the blade is fully open, there isn't any side-play on the blade. Now try taking the liner pressure off and try for side-play. This knife STILL doesn't twitch. Now bring it halfway closed and try for side-play. Still none here. And when the knife's closed, it is FULLY enclosed - you expect the tip to be covered, but check a few of your knives. You'll probably find a few where part of the pivot-side of the blade is exposed (I did).
The scales are not the same thickness from front to rear - there's a pronounced swell at the tip away from the bolsters, swelling from 11.3 mm near the bolsters to 13.5 mm at the tip. Although they are not of uniform thickness, they are symmetrical. I don't know if this was done to make it feel better in the hand, but it sure does feel like it was made for my hand.
Earlier I mentioned the blade-to-handle ratio. Johnny clued me in to yet another folder criteria. I'm sure you've seen knives that seem somewhat mis-proportioned, where the blade just seems too short for the handle. Johnny Stout suggested that I divide the blade length by the handle length. For a knife in the 6 to 7 inch total length range, under 70% is poor, 70 to 75% is good, over 75% is very good, and over 80% is outstanding. Note that a higher ratio is much easier with a large knife - the best ratio of any knife I have is from the Cold Steel Vaquero Grande, with an overall length of 13.4 inches. And none of my knives with a total length under 6" even get to 70% (but a very elegant short A. T. Barr got to 69.8%!). Also, several of my knives that did have pretty good ratios 'cheated' by exposing part of the pivot-side of the blade.
As I learn more about knives, I find I judge them quite differently than I did earlier in my education. Look at the judgement criteria written by the experts - from Darrel Ralph criteria at http://is.dal.ca/~totalgsd/tkc-l/checklist.html, and, if you're looking at liner-locks, look at the FAQ from rec.knives, at http://www.bladeforums.com/reviews/faqllock.html among other places. But DON'T just glance at them and than go to a show. Print them out and USE THEM ON YOUR OWN KNIVES, to see how they REALLY work (you may be somewhat disappointed in some of your old favorites - I know I was). Get one of the cheapie plastic micrometers, or at least a decent ruler, and a 10-power magnifier. THEN you can go to the show, forewarned and forearmed. Some of the better knifemakers out there will appreciate a knowledgeable buyer. And some of the 'other' knifemakers won't.

------------------
 
Hi Marvin,

A 10X magnifier is a little much. Remember the guys and gals making these knives do not use a 10X magnifier. Be fair to the makers, if you cant tell with your eyeballs, it's probably good enough.

Once youve looked at enough knives closely youll be amazed at how quickly you can spot both good and bad on a knife.

I amazed one knifemaker at the Las Vegas Show by telling him he was left handed. I had never met him. He wanted to know how I could tell just by looking at his knife. I showed him two areas that gave it away. He was very appreciative.

Dont rely on artifical aids, do your homework and youll be able to tell with your own eyes. Contrary to what you say, most makers will not appreciate you taking a mic and 10x scope to their work.

Judge the makers work on price v quality.

Most of the tests on folding knives are unrealistic. Much like cutting a 1 inch hemp rope and chopping a 2 X 4, shoving the knife through a car door, etc.really show you nothing of how a fixed blade will perform for the task it was intended for.

Hitting a folder blade on the back of the blade. Now what normal task that a folding knife is to be used for would require that. Blade strength, I challange anyone to break a bar of heat treated 1/8" stock with their bare hands. Understand that anything you could do to break the steel would swedge the pivot pin long before you broke the steel.

Too many people today are expecting folding knives to perform like fixed blades. They never will. Any mechanical item, can and will fail. It may take 10,000 tries or more, but eventually.

Most people dont understand that a liner lock made out of titanium at a rockwell hardness of 40 scraping a piece of ATS-34 with a rockwell harness of 58 will eventually loosen. And after years the liner will slide all the way over to the right. This is the nature of the beast.

But with all this said, Marvin's point is well made. Take the makers to task. Make them give you value for your money.



------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
It is easier to get things done with a kind word and a knife, than with a kind word alone!

 
great review marvin! i learned a lot just by reading it.
i understand that a folder will never perform like a fixed blade, but i think it should come as close as possible. the liner lock just doesn't cut it. as soon as makers stop using liner locks, i will buy more custom folders. if i'm forced to use a $500 folder for self defense, i think for that kind of $$, it should not close on my hand! it's a good thing i carry a fixed blade, but you never know when that folder's lock strength might be tested.

marco
 
Les -
1) Well, OK, maybe I got a little carried away with the mic and 10-power magnifier at the show. Realistically, my eyes aren't quite as good as they used to be. But I sure do use them at home!
2) How did you tell about the left-handedness?
3) "Most of the tests on folding knives are unrealistic. Much like cutting a 1 inch hemp rope and chopping a 2 X 4, shoving the knife through a car door, etc.really show you nothing of how a fixed blade will perform for the task it was intended for." Well, I've used my A. T. Barr folder for cutting rope and for notching 2 x 4s, and it worked fine. And if I am attacked by a car door, I'll probably attempt retaliation. Until then, I'll leave the car-door stabs to the Cold Steel videos.
"Show you nothing of how a fixed blade will perform" - I'll assume you meant "how a given blade will perform", and say that since I'm buying, I get to determine what it's for. I have a somewhat lengthy background in testing, although of somewhat larger items than knives, and we generally go by the 'whack it 'till it breaks' philosophy. I'll agree that I should be looking for 'value vs. cost', and not all the makers go for impregnability.
4) "Hitting a folder on the back of the blade" - well, I'll agree about drawing the line on that one at a show. I might put a tad of back-pressure on the blade with my fingers, but if I were a maker and someone came by whacking on the backs of my blades, I think I'd suggest he whack something else some place else, well away from my table. (Are you familiar with the multiple uses of a rolling donut?)
But when I get home, it's MINE, and I can whack away to my heart's content. To tell you the truth, I would not have back-whacked the Johnny Stout knife except that I had a copy of the A. T. Barr liner-lock tests in front of me, and wanted to be complete. Please note that when I was testing the Stout knife, whose primary purpose in life is to look real pretty, I was also testing some of my other knives. And I used A. T.s tests on A. T.s knives (seems fair, doesn't it?), and whacked my daily-carry folder a LOT harder than the others. It didn't close. Something like A. T. - it may not be pretty, but it's pretty tough.
5) (paraphrased) "Folding knives will never perform like fixed blades." I agree. But I'll plunk my money down on the folders that really TRY!

I really appreciate your comments. I may not always agree with all of them, but if I read my own a year from now, I may not agree with that either!



------------------
 
1st off, thanks to Marvin for an interesting review. 2nd off, I mean absolutely no disrespect to anybody, but when I hear or read of knifemakers attempting to disuade customers from using some very real world tests developed by other knifemakers then I've got to wade in and voice my opinion.

If you make locking folders that can't withstand some extremely simple non-abusive tests of your locks integrity, then you should be labeling all of your production as non-functioning works of art. Just so that everyone is clear, no one is talking about hammering knives to destruction or using them as improtu auto body chisels.

It's *highly* relevant that any locking folder sold be able to withstand a very quick light whiplike pressure on the spine, since that's exactly the kind of force one gets if one is cutting tough material and has the misfortune to have the blade unexpectedly twist around. The number one reason that folks migrate to locking knives is that they've had, or heard of, bad experiences with exactly that scenario on slipjoints.

I also really don't understand the reference to cutting rope and wood. The number one thing that I want my knives to do is be able to cut fibrous materials. If the material is butter, then I don't need much of a knife. For a noted maker to publicly poo-poo the idea of knives performing actual work is just plain shortsighted.

BTW- just to be clear, this is not a flame or an attack of any kind, just a head's up from a potential customer. Think about it.
mps
 
MPS,

No one is suggesting that the knife should not hold up to a non-abusive test. The individuals who perform these tests are generally not comparing apples to apples.

You can take a thinner knife like a Howard Viele and a knife from Carson or Lightfoot. The Viele will not favorably compete with the Carson and Lightfoot if some of these "tests" are performed.

We all learned at a young age "the right tool for the right job". If you are planning on using/abusing a knife, then buy a overbuilt folder,

If you are looking for a Tactical Gents folder, then understand the limitations that a thinner lightweight knife has.

All knives are not created equal, even if the quality is equal.

All knives should perform as intended.

Tests have to be looked at closely, 1 inch hemp rope for instance. I can take any $10.00 machete, put a proper edge on it and cut through this free hanging rope. Now how is this indicative of a quality blade.

I was never attacked by a 1" hemp rope, however I did have to use my knife to chop through ice in Alaska at -35 degrees and chop through vines and jungle in Panama, etc.
I consider how the knife performs in the real world much more important than any test that can be perfomred in someones living room.

Just some more thoughts on the test thing!

 
MPS,

No one is suggesting that the knife should not hold up to a non-abusive test. The individuals who perform these tests are generally not comparing apples to apples.

You can take a thinner knife like a Howard Viele and a knife from Carson or Lightfoot. The Viele will not favorably compete with the Carson and Lightfoot if some of these "tests" are performed.

We all learned at a young age "the right tool for the right job". If you are planning on using/abusing a knife, then buy a overbuilt folder,

If you are looking for a Tactical Gents folder, then understand the limitations that a thinner lightweight knife has.

All knives are not created equal, even if the quality is equal.

All knives should perform as intended.

Tests have to be looked at closely, 1 inch hemp rope for instance. I can take any $10.00 machete, put a proper edge on it and cut through this free hanging rope. Now how is this indicative of a quality blade.

I was never attacked by a 1" hemp rope, however I did have to use my knife to chop through ice in Alaska at -35 degrees and chop through vines and jungle in Panama, etc.
I consider how the knife performs in the real world much more important than any test that can be perfomred in someones living room.

Just some more thoughts on the test thing!



------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
It is easier to get things done with a kind word and a knife, than with a kind word alone!

 
Les,
With all due respect, it seems to me like you are on the verge of confusing things like the perfectly relevent AT Barr liner lock test with the simple showboat tactics of Lynn Thompson. Forgive me if that comment is grossly misplaced, but that does seem to be the distinction that you are perhaps blurring.

Nobody suggested wildly swinging at free hanging manila with their ''gentleman's folder" . The one and only time I've ever done free hanging manila slashing tests, I went on record as mentioning it as an extreme waste of both materials and time, for exactly the reason(s) you mention. Namely, a decent machete wins that one.

That is not to say that _all_ testing of blades is so frivolous, and that is really where I take exception to the gist of your double reply.

As far as comparing apples only to other apples, then if that logic were to be followed, I guess we'd never glimse the orange or the papaya or the mango.

Just a different point of view. Keep in mind that I think we're likely on the same side: more or less.

Cheers, and good luck,
mps
 
MPS,

Of course we are on the same side, we want quality work for the money. I am not confusing the hemp rope test with others. I was using this as an example to show you what a farce most of these tests are.

You want to know if a skinning knife works, go skin something! No Im not confusing a skinning knife with a folder. Although some folders are used to skin. This of course leads to the fruit comparison. If a skinning folder is designed for delicate close in skining. When are we going to generate enough force on the back of this blade to see if it will pass the "white knuckle" test.

Again, my point in this is the right tool for the right job. The knife should be able to do what it is intended to do. A Tony Bose Folder can be used for self-defense, but that is not what it was designed for. Just as a Greg Lightfoot 458 Magnum can skin a animal in a survival situation, but that is not what it is designed for.

Hopefully this has stirred the silt once again and everything is opaque!

I love my job!

------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
It is easier to get things done with a kind word and a knife, than with a kind word alone!

 
Well, Les, you've really made me think about 'value' and the appropriateness of tests. I've really got to think about 'The knife should be able to do what it is intended to do.'
Let's try this specifically on two of my favorite knives - the above-reviewed Johnny Stout 'pretty' and my daily carry, an A. T. Barr liner-lock folder of bead-blasted ATS-34.
The purpose of the Stout knife is to look pretty, and the Barr is meant to work. Using this criterion, the Barr should have a very positive lock, and the tight lock isn't required for the Stout. The Barr should have a practical blade shape for general use, and it shouldn't matter on the Stout. Since I'm going to be using it and opening it frequently, the Barr should open very smoothly and cleanly. The Stout will only be opened to show it off, so it will not need smooth and clean blade opening.
Well, this isn't working out so well. I certainly can't argue with your 'judge it for it's meant for', but I now see that I can't use it for my buying. I got the Stout for several very non-functional reasons, particularly the workmanship. There were other knives at this show, some for considerably less money, that fully satisfied the 'looks great' criteria, but this isn't enough for me. There's no reason at all for the Stout to work as well as it does, nor is it reasonable to require it to have such meticulous craftsmanship. But that's why I bought it. I can't justify the decision, but on reflection I still feel I did what I wanted to do (buy THIS knife, rather than another one), and I'd do it again.
But I appreciate your forcing me to THINK about what I did, and why I did it.


------------------
 
Marvin,

I think your missing the point of what I am trying to say. Just because a knife is "pretty" doesnt mean that it should function properly and have all the fit and finish that should be required by a good custom folder (which you say, and I have no doubt Johnnies knife is).

Pretty, doesnt enter into what I am trying to get across. Example, the liner lock, wether it is a presentation or a tactical folder, should keep the blade locked in place with no play. However, clamping either in a vise and then hitting the back of the blade is not realistic. When will you, using a folder knife for the functions it was intended for, ever put that kind of pressure on the "BACK" of the blade. The answer is never!

Like I said, how a knife functions in the field is a much better test then many of the tests thought up by some of the "arm chair warriors" who pontificate on the virtues of a particular knife and have no real world experience as to what a knife can and cannot do.

Les<------is now stepping off the soap box and is looking for new wrongs to right! <G>

Marvin, you got a couple of great knives. Please enjoy.



------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
It is easier to get things done with a kind word and a knife, than with a kind word alone!

 
Les, next time you step off a soap box, you might want to make sure that you haven't put a noose around your own neck first.

In what's supposed to be a flame proof environment, you as moderator have just managed to insult virtually everybody by your assumption that you are the only one qualified to hold an opinion.

mps
 
mps,

I think what Les is referring to is that other forum members have reported testing their folders not by light to moderate taps to the spine, but by "whacking the heck out of the back of the blade". A folder wasn't designed to take that kind of abuse. If it passes, great, but if it fails then that's not representative of how a folder will perform in normal everyday use.

Personally, I haven't found anything insulting in Les' posts. I haven't seen any character attacks or condescending statements towards other posters in this thread. Only that he has his opinion which differs from others and that he continues to stick by it and explain his position. Isn't that what a discussion forum is for, to express different views? If everyone agreed on everything, it would get kinda boring!

Alan
 
Alan,

Thank you. You were right on target. I was not trying to insult anyone. Having been at this a day or two longer than most on this fourm. I have seen so many "tests" come and go. It personally bothers me when people buy into hype. I know its how we sell alot of things in this country and around the world that way.

MPS, yes I have very definte opinions. My opionions may not always follow the group concensus. But my opinions are based on both experience as the end user and as the buyer/seller of more knives than I can remember.

Every custom knife maker I know will stand behind their knife and repair any problem that you ever encounter with it. So my point still stands, when, if ever will you use your folding knife in such a way that you beat the back of the blade on a table (or other hard surface)? The thing that is really confusing on the whole issue is that most of us while using a folding knife do so for slicing and cutting. Most of the pressure is actually on the stop pin when doing this, not the liner lock. The only reason a lock exsists on a folder is for when you are sticking the knife in something. This keeps it from accidentaly closing on your hand. Just something to consider!

There is not a maker out there who does not want to know how to improve their knives. So if we as a body of uses and collectors can come up with tests that reflect the every day use of these knives, Im sure the makers would love to know what they are.

By the way, it is poor etiquette to walk up to a makers or dealers table, pick up a folder and bang the back of the blade against the table! At that point most people on my side of the table would consider the knife SOLD!

MPS, there was no insult intended. You can ask those who know me. If I was trying to offend or insult someone, they would know it.

I love my Job

------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
It is easier to get things done with a kind word and a knife, than with a kind word alone!

 
I'm just catching up on this thread...The review was very good & it sounds like a fine knife. The important part I see is the value of opinions & the experience of the members. I have a small collection of custom knives & have never "tested" any one of them. On the other hand, they do get tested in the real world through their use. My new Sawby/Robertson folder is perfect (Thanks Les!) for day carry at work in my professional environment. It is slim & the 2.5" blade non threatening. For defense, camping, heavy use my R. J. Martin folder is better suited & in fact perfect. For dress, one of my damascus folders. When I need to keep a low profile, my R.J. Martin Mini Kozuka neck knife. Do I drive my car from 0-60 mph to see if it is as fast as the ads claim? No. I buy knives from reputable dealers with much greater experience than I. More importantly, my purchases are guided by people (makers & purveyors) who use & make knives for a living, as if their lives depended on it. Just as Car & Driver helps me assess the performance of the cars I may buy, these people help me buy knives. I expect as Les said that every knife I buy from a high end damascus folder to basic tactical model will perform for the use I intend. I have to come to rely on these people to help me with my decisions & the relationships I have built are rewarding ones. Needless to say I've come to rely on Les almost exclusively for my knife purchases. Through him I have come to know as well the makers he recommends. I encourage anyone on the list to talk to makers & purveyors, they are a source of experience & knowledge that few other industries would so freely share. Learn from them, be informed. Next, look for people who use knives as if their life would (or has) depended on it. Look for makers & purveyors who will stand by their knives (ask Les about his guarantee!) & listen to your ? & concerns. Then, buy a knife from those people who will sell you the best knife for you & not the first one that catches your eye.
 
Amen Brother Les and Brother Drew,
I read no insults in this thread and fortune smiles upon us as we are not limited to one knife for all applications. I enjoy artful representations without feeling the need to torture test them. I also have blades I know would pass those tests without feeling obligated to torture them to prove a point. In my book: the longer a blade lasts-the better. Let my heirs debate this with my blades a couple hundred years from now. My grandfather's personal knife will be among them, but not if we start "proof" testing them.
 
question for Les - if A.T. Barr's liner lock tests are not indicative of real world use, then why does he do them? i think that the whack on the spine is an excellent test. any knife that does not pass this is not worthwhile to me.

marco
 
Hi Marco,

AT's test is a good test to check if the lock will hold in place. The same thing can be accomplished by holding the knife in your right hand and pressing down on the back of the blade with your left. This is what I do. My goal is not to see if the blade is going to stay put (it always does). I want to see how much flex there is in the liner lock and does it return to where it started when I realese the pressure off of the back of the blade. Remember the liner lock is only a safety device.

You can do my little test without drawing attention to yourself and upsetting the owner of the knife.

I know that when I buy a knife from a quality maker such as A.T. Barr that I dont have to worry if the lock is going to hold or not.

Once again, I am waiting for someone to tell me when the whacking of the back of the blade on a hard surface would be done during the normal use of a knife.

Thank you Drew and JW for feedback.



------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
It is easier to get things done with a kind word and a knife, than with a kind word alone!

 
Why is it that some "overbuilt" folders will fail the linerlock tests, and some that "lightweight" folders will pass? What is it about the construction of the knife that will allow some to pass the tests and some to fail? If one was making knives, and became aware that they would not pass the linerlock tests, it would be reasonable to assume one would want to know why. Would it be a fair statement to say that any knife that does not pass the linerlock tests is defective? If not, why not? Maybe not a "real world" test, but a baseline test of design and construction. If one had a choice, wouldn't you prefer a knife that passed the linerlock tests over one that would not?
 
Using a knife with a decent amount of force on the handle can generate reverse forces on the blade if you happen to make a slip or something during cutting and the back of the blade strikes off of something.

The fact is that any well built liner lock should be able to pass this test easily (spine whack) as its quite possible to build them in that manner and even be much more rugged than that. See Joe's recent report on some very well built liner locks on slim gentlemens folders as well as Darrel Ralph's comments on how liner locks should be made. If you are going to invest in a custom knife, gentlemens or otherwise, why not get one with a decent liner lock since they are available.

-Cliff
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top