Knives made by CNC machines

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Ang_Panday

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I have noticed that there are some knives in the market that are being made now by CNC machines. Would you consider this knives as handmade and Customs or they fit more as production knives :thumbup:

From my understanding of a custom knife. First thing is it should be handmade. If it is made by a CNC then what would you classify it :confused:
 
Another thing is a handmade knife is a one of a kind knife. Even if they look the same they are still different from one another. Not like a knife that is made by a CNC. All you need is a program and it could make a buch of knives that is exactly the same as the other one :o
 
Conversations about this subject, must take up 20Gb of space on this server.
In all those I have read, there has never been any resolute answer arrived at.
I think thats why it comes around so regularly.

That said; cnc controlled machines would be in my shop if that is the approach I wanted to take, to knife making. They are, just not in my shop plan.

For all those that take that approach, best of luck to you all.

Make a good knife, Fred
 
Most folk consider them customs because they are still hand fitted and finished by the maker. On the darker side of the coin, it's kind of a taboo subject to some, as to disagree might hurt the value of the tactical customs, since many are made in that fashion. Really, all is up to the collector, and the market at the time.
 
There are some knife makers who uses a CNC to make a component of a knife, but there are some who use a CNC to build the whole knife :eek:

It could be considered as custom if the production is very limited, but you could easily mass produce it, as long as you have the program :)
 
This reminds me of a paragraph in Bob Terzuola's book on tactical knives where he tips his hat to knifemaker's who pin their knives together. He says something along the lines of, "I use screws because I can take it apart and adjust things IF I NEED TO. I'm just to scared to trust pinning a knife once and for all." That paragraph has a similar resonance for me to the debate over CNC programming and tools vs. "handmade". I suppose once upon a time a blacksmith who used hammers and files felt that grinders/belt sanders were anathema and not "REAL" knifemaking tools (some still do I bet..................). There's no right answer for everyone.

But...........

I can tell you that I won't be buying/collecting any expensive, CNC-produced, tactical knives when there are old classics that suit my idea of knives better. I consider them production knives, regardless of the design and programming skill required to produce the parts. That is not to say that the hand fitting and finishing doesn't take a great deal of skill, I KNOW IT DOES, I just don't view the end product as unique and worth hundreds, or thousands, of dollars more then I'd spend for a perfectly usable Spyderco, Kershaw, SOG, Lone Wolf or whatever. If I buy a knife to carry and use, as opposed to as a "collectable," I take the chance of losing it, or breaking it by accident (doesn't happen often but it can). I treat it as a tool that might get used up, and I'm not concerned with its future value. I'm concerned with its utility as a tool when I need it.

If a custom maker chooses to catch up on his backlog by acquiring high tech tooling, that is a personal decision, just as my choice, whether to buy a CNC product or not, is. If their customers are happy I say that's great.

Syn
 
It doesn't matter how you make the knife as long as you do the best you can and you let the customer know how the knife was made.
 
I've heard tell that some guys have started using drill presses and other machinery to make just about every component of their "HAND-MADE" knives ;) :D
 
samhain73 said:
Most folk consider them customs because they are still hand fitted and finished by the maker.
Click to expand...

yeah, but so are production knives. I had a custom folder that really impressed me when I first opened the mail package because the lines were so crisp, the jimping so perfect. Then I realized I was being wowed by the fact that this high dollar custom was cut out by a machine, just like my quality production blades.

and on the other side we have importers selling knives made by relatively primitive means from all over the world, and for darned cheap.

materials and procedures affect pricing, but not as much as name & image, imo. Even CNC shaped blades have a mystique to them with the right blade stamp.
 
hardheart said:
yeah, but so are production knives. I realized I was being wowed by the fact that this high dollar custom was cut out by a machine, just like my quality production blades.
materials and procedures affect pricing, but not as much as name & image, imo. Even CNC shaped blades have a mystique to them with the right blade stamp.
Click to expand...
I agree,I was just saying what some folks believe or even perhaps would have one believe.
 
I probably ought to not post, but,
I consider handmade knives to be handmade based on the definition provided by the what the Knifemakers' Guild defines as handmade....that is what I make mine according to as a maker and look for as a collector.
I consider Custom to be made to a client's specific desire....even if it is a "standard pattern" with "standard materials"....or if it something exotic.

For example, a fellow purchased a knife from one of the Dealers I like doing business with....I chose what pattern, what materials etc. to use and my Dealer sold what I, as a maker, chose to make. That knife was definitely handmade, and IMHO, not custom.
Now the client has contacted me and wants me to replicate the handmade knife he purchased from one of my Dealers. While I do my best to replicate one that I considered handmade, because it is specific to what the client wants, it is still handmade, but is also custom made to his request.....
I won't ask a premium because it is not only handmade but also custom made to his request, but IMHO, it is now custom made as well as handmade...
I hope I didn't just "befuddle" this thread...
Thanks for letting me speak....both cents worth....(smile).
As to CNC, what if the maker does all the programing? I am not going there, because I don't know the answer..... I just know what I do, and what I look for in a knife I might collect......
 
Ang_Panday said:
All you need is a program and it could make a bunch of knives that is exactly the same as the other one :o
Click to expand...

I take it you have never designed a knife in CAD or cut it on a CNC machine. I feel that CNC machining knives (by a custom maker, not a large company) is an art form in itself! It takes a lot of skill to draw bevels in CAD, realize scale, and cut some of the geometries associated with making a knife. Writing cutter path is not nearly as simple as most people think, it's actually quite complex. I work in a small machine shop, and I am the CAD/CNC department (I run 3 CNC machines by myself:D). I drew up and CNC cut my first real knife, then hand finished it (very very rough). It took me about 12 hours from start to finish. IMHO, it is a whole lot more than JUST writing a program to cut a knife on a CNC machine. Just the viewpoint from a humble machinist.

Knife1.jpg

Knife2.jpg

Knife3.jpg

DSC01291.jpg
 
There is no question that there are HIGHLY technical skills needed to do CAD/CAM production knives. ( I am trying to learn a CAD program and it's taking real effort. )

They are just a different animal then handmade, custom knives.

Syn
 
I am not trying to hijack this thread or say that knife makers hate CNC machinist. I too agree that a CNC knife is different than a handmade. I would actually prefer a CNC made knife, just because I am only into user knives. To answer Samhian73's question: I could actually cut about 1 knife an hour (very rough machining on the bevels) on my machines, but I'm using CNC machines that are old tech (4000 RPM max, 150 in/min max), on a newer CNC machine (20,000+ RPM, 500+ in/min) you could do a lot better. Setup also takes a while because when you flip the flat stock over, you must setup with indicators to the .001".
 
Let the customer decide what they want. People will spend money on what they deem to be of value. Certainly some of the organizations like the ABS and the various makers guilds have guidelines and definitions that their members are expected to adhere to, but a lot of makers don't belong to such associations and aren't holding themselves to the same guidelines. Even 1hr on a CNC to grind profile and bevels is a lot less time than I take using a grinder, the pricing should reflect that IMO (but then CNC machines aren't cheap either).

Be honest with your customers, let them know the methods you use, and if you can sell with your methods, then all the best to you.

have a good one,
Nathan
 
Typically guys that think using CNC is cheating or easy or 'cheap' are unfamiliar with CNC machining.
It's a tool. It's not magic. It doesn't "make" anything. It performs operations all of which require planning, tooling/fixture fabrication and machining savvy.
The quality of the parts you get is entirely dependent upon the quality of the engineering going in and the skill of the CNC machinist.
People create things using tools. There are no magic wands.
I do the sole-authorship, hand-made-everything knives and swords, and I do CNC projects. The right tool for the right job.
 
This topic has been argued a lot and there are many ways to slice and dice this argument. Another question might be is the knife handmade/custom IF the guy using the CNC mill does it all in his shop from soup to nuts as opposed to the guy who makes a prototype or drawing and sends it out to be milled and only assmebles and and finishes the knife in his shop? The same question could be applied to the guy who has his blanks laser out.
 
here's one for ya....what's the difference between sending my blades out to be waterjet cut...and having an apprentice cut them out? (from my end - it's the same...at the end of the day...I still have to go back and clean stuff up, get it ready for the next stage of the process).
 
Ok, this isnt ment to to slight anyone or how they chose to make knives, but opinions were asked for so here goes. To me it's more about what you are capable of. If you have a file, a vise and a drill could you make a knife? One you could sell? I played guitar along time. I considered myself a guitar player but never a musician. Why? Because I wasnt a composer of any merit and no band of consequence would hire me to play for them. Anyone can train a physical skill to some reasonable extent (well almost anyone), but how many people create something or master an art? To me a knife maker at the apex of the art is more than just a human CNC machine. He must be able to profile, grind bevels, fit gaurds, apply handles, know how to treat and finish wood, understand metals and how to HT them, ect. ect. ect... So to me there is something to be said for having the skills to do it with whatever you have to work with or in any situation. I think if a man is going to do stock removal for 40 years it would make sense that at some point he should try and forge a blade. Am I saying he should become a forger? No. But as a knifemaker why wouldnt you explore it at least? I dont plan on going neotribal, but I will make a knife ona handgrinder and HT it in a firepit at some point. I think such exploration can only build your overall skill set and knowledge of what it is you are endeavoring to do.

Now when it comes to production methods for a knife maker with "models" that are in high demand profiling with cnc or water jet makes alot of sense for several reasons. First of all profiling a knife blank is about the easiest thing I do. I grind away to the scribe lines, others cut away to the same. Sometimes I find myself wishing for a trained monkey to profile for me (ok, im exagerating but you get the point). So if someone is doing everything else in a more traditional fashion I fail to see the big deal. As many have pointed out already as long as they are honest about there methods the buyer has the choice.

I also thought long and hard about this subject in relation to folders when R.J. Martin and Rick Hinderer chimed in on the subject. They both expressed that there knives are often users and they both needed to work on existing knives and get them back to said users. One look at there blade grinds will convince anyone of there hand skills. If you make 100 folders a year and each one is ever has ever so slightly different dimensions then the ability to say replace a scale is dependent on your work load. Maybe you are already swamped and now you have to custom fit a new scale to an existing knife and blade. I can really see where cnc'd part prolfiles (or water jet cut for that mater) could be a huge boon to both maker and customer at that point. I can also see how on a $2000 custom folder I wouldnt mind waiting for a hand fit from scratch repair. If I ever (holding breath) have any such demmand for my work I will at that point have to decide for myself. In the end the customers will decide for themselves wether we like it or not.
 
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