Knives of Cassius M Clay of Kentucky (1810-1903)

[Jack Black]

Please note that, as the title says, this thread is about the knives of Cassius M Clay (1810-1903) NOT about the boxer, who changed his name to Muhammed Ali :thumbup:

A few months back, I had a minor spree in an antiques centre, and picked up the knife below, which has a stainless blade and a scabbard and hilt apparently made from Argentine silver. Other members advised that what I had picked up was a Gaucho Knife, (a rather dressy one I think), and I am not alone here in owning a knife like this, Scrteened Porch for example, has a near identical knife from the same maker.











Last night, I happened to be leafing through an old reference book I’d been given, The Standard Knife Collector’s Guide Identification & Values, Second Edition by Roy Ritchie and Ron Stewart, when this knife caught my eye. My apologies for the poor quality of the image, but this is how it appears in the book.



There seems to be some similarity between the knives, but what surprised me was the text which accompanied the photo:

This knife is an excellent example of a knife of historical significance. It was presented to Cassius M. Clay (US Minister to Russia under Lincoln, Johnson, and Grant) at the end of his ministry in 1869 by Czar Alexander II. Clay and the Czar had become close friends during his service to Russia. The choice of this gift, made by a Russian artisan especially for Clay, is evidence of the Czar's awareness of Clay's appreciation of fine cutlery. The estimated value of this knife is between three and five thousand dollars. (Photo by M. Lincoln)

Clay was famously handy with a Bowie Knife, and a number of his knives are on display at White Hall, his former home. The knives include two vintage Wostenholm Bowies. Unfortunately photographs may not be taken at the museum, or that was certainly the case in the past (I know that the ubiquity of mobile phones with cameras has caused many museums to relax this rule in recent years).

I've searched online, and am unable to find any reference to the knife featured in The Standard Knife Collector's Guide. While I've seen a few errors in the guide, it generally seems very authoritative, and is certainly not sloppily written. Of course publishers and printers sometimes make errors.

I note that there are several claims to ownership of Clay's most famous fighting Bowie, and that it has been said that in his dotage he sometimes gifted knives assuring recipients that they had 'the one'. I can't help wondering, in the case of the Russian/Gaucho knife if there has not simply been some confusion.

I wonder if anyone here has visited White Hall or come across any references to the knife. I thought this might be an intriguing subject for discussion, and please feel free to post photos of any other knives associated with Cassius M Clay.

Jack

 

[Jack Black]

Scholarly article about Gaucho Knives here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

 

[screened porch]

He looks like the kind of guy to a knife-fight with whom you'd want to bring a gun.

The knife sure looks like it came from Argentina, though there's no reason a Russian artisan couldn't have made one in that style.
When I was at Levine's trying to find the maker of mine, nobody mentioned similar Russian examples.

In short, no idea. Thanks for the history. And thanks for the link.
Google-imaging cassius m clay white hall, something very like a Boker-style small gaucho knife (or a jagdnicker) comes up in the first line.

 

[Jack Black]

He looks like the kind of guy to a knife-fight with whom you'd want to bring a gun.

I think that those who brought guns to Mr Clay's knife fights came unstuck!

Google-imaging cassius m clay white hall, something very like a small gaucho knife (or a jagdnicker) comes up in the first line.

If I'm not mistaken, I think that knife is one that Cassius M Clay actually gifted someone. It's now owned by one of his descendants :thumbup:

 

[hamsco]

Mr.Clay was quite a gentleman. One story I have heard is how he held back a crowd, who wanted to destroy his printing press, using a two four pound Cannons, filled with shot and nails.

I live in the fine state of Kentucky and will stop into Whitehall next time I'm in the area. It's close to Richmond Ky.

Thanks for the interesting morning knife history

 

[r redden]

Jack your title made me first think of the boxer Muhammad Ali. His given name was Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr. which he changed to Muhammad Ali after he joined the Nation of Islam. I remember that event and the backlash that occurred from it well. I did not know of the other Cassius M. Clay but in the few minutes I just spent snooping around the internet I believe I will find research into this Kentucky Gentleman and his fondness of knives a good way to spend a rainy Saturday morning. Thanks for posting this thread I Believe it will prove to be very interesting.:thumbup:

 

[Jack Black]

Mr.Clay was quite a gentleman. One story I have heard is how he held back a crowd, who wanted to destroy his printing press, using a Gatling gun.

I live in the fine state of Kentucky and will stop into Whitehall next time I'm in the area. It's close to Richmond Ky.

Thanks for the interesting morning knife history

A fine state indeed That would be fantastic :thumbup:

I'd assumed that Mr Clay's history would be well-known to our US members, but perhaps that is not the case.

Jack your title made me first think of the boxer Muhammad Ali. His given name was Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr. which he changed to Muhammad Ali after he joined the Nation of Islam. I remember that event and the backlash that occurred from it well. I did not know of the other Cassius M. Clay but in the few minutes I just spent snooping around the internet I believe I will find research into this Kentucky Gentleman and his fondness of knives a good way to spend a rainy Saturday morning. Thanks for posting this thread I Believe it will prove to be very interesting.:thumbup:

Muhammad Ali's father was named for the Kentucky gentleman, who was very active in the struggle against slavery, and gave that name, in turn, to his son. I certainly know more about the boxer than the knife-fighter, but the latter seems to have been a quite fascinating character, whom we could all benefit from learning more about :thumbup:

 

[Jack Black]

Can anyone make out what it says on the blade? To me, the last word certainly could be 'Clay'.

 

[TsarBomba]

Can anyone make out what it says on the blade? To me, the last word certainly could be 'Clay'.

I am almost positive it is his name in ornate lettering, "Cassius M. Clay". I cannot make out anything before the first name.

Another fantastic history exposition on BF, Jack, thank you!

 

[Jack Black]

I am almost positive it is his name in ornate lettering, "Cassius M. Clay". I cannot make out anything before the first name.

Another fantastic history exposition on BF, Jack, thank you!

Thanks TsarBomba, I think you may well be right, and obviously that would make sense. It still seems strange to me that a Gaucho Knife - a Verijero - so closely matching those of Argentina, would have been made by a Russian craftsman and presented as a gift from the Tsar. I wonder if this knife is perhaps being confused with another knife, or if the details of the story are incorrect?

 

[Jack Black]

I note that in A History of White Hall: House of Clay by Lashe D Mullins and Charles K Mullins, there is a photo of a portrait of Tsar Alexander II given to Cassius M Clay by the Tsar upon his return to the USA. He may have been given a knife as well, but I've not yet found a mention of it.

 

[Primble]

Not very far from me Jack. I will also take a look in the near future. I thought White Hall sounded familiar. I have been there before.

It is a BEAUTIFUL piece of cutlery, regardless. Looks like Cassius M. Clay to me on the blade.

 

[Jack Black]

Thanks Primble, much appreciated. It looks to be a beautiful part of the world :thumbup:

This is a German-made knife, also bearing Cassius M Clay's name. In this case, it is thought that he may have presented it to a friend.

 

[btmccutcheon]

For a moment there, I thought Muhammad Ali was exhibiting his unknown knife collection. I'm feeling kinda stupid now. Carry on...

 

[Campbellclanman]

Neat reading Jack. Your question - as others have answered - certainly does have his name etched on the blade.

Great reading. Fascinating stuff.

 

[screened porch]

I hope we'll find out whether the tsar commissioned a verijero, or he had one or sent for one and had it etched, or Clay got his knives confused, or a curator did.
But I'm sure a lot of us will learn something by researching the Lion of White Hall.
(I don't think I'd ever heard of him. If he'd been a president I'd have memorized him once.)

 

[Will Power]

Absorbing topic. I confess I thought it might be about the greatest boxer ever to take to the ring in the c20th He might have had pocket-knives, who knows?

That knife does not look like any Russian dress daggers or presentational knives I've ever seen, I would imagine it would have Cyrillic inscriptions on it as well-but we can't see the other side of the blade. I suggest contacting makandr who posts on the Levine Forum, has a monumental collection of knives and is Russian. He'd be able to shed light on this one I'm certain.

Thanks, Will

 

[Jack Black]

Thanks Duncan

I'd assumed Mr Clay was better known than he perhaps is. There seems to be a great deal of confusion about knives he was associated with in general, but apart from in the book I referenced in the first post, I've not seen this knife referred to anywhere else. The photo doesn't look original to the book though, so perhaps it IS referenced elsewhere. I guess that without the association with Mr Clay and the Tsar, the knife would be valued at a fraction of what it is otherwise.

Cassius M Clay seems to have had a fascinating life, and was involved in more than his fair share of 'knife play' There's some great material about him on the net, including an interview where he talks about his various duels and altercations. He was clearly a knife aficionado, and widely travelled, so I dare say he brought a few knives back home with him, and was probably gifted them too.

 

[Bob W]

I too clicked on this topic to see what kind of pocketknife Muhammad Ali carries.

 

[RobertJ1]

That is certainly an interesting knife. Kind of looks like a kitchen knife of sorts. The history behind this was a great read. Thanks for sharing Jack!