Knives of the Wild West?

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Jan 3, 2005
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Just out of curiosity, I've been searching information about knives used in North-America in the 18th and 19th century.

We all know of the Bowie and Arkansas Toothpick, but there must be more. What were the knives of the outlaws, cowboys, Native Americans etc. in the wild west?

Any information or tips of articles, discussion or books would be much appreciated.

--
northernlight
 
It's my understanding that long before specialized hunting knives were made many a mountain man carried kitchen, or butcher, knives.

Frank
 
There is an exellent book "American Knives" by Harold Peterson, published by Charles Scribner's sons, New York. It is out of print, but there may be a copy on E-bay floating around. It deals with just what you are loking for, the 18th and 19th centurys.

Before the American Revelution, most of the tools came from England. In fact thee were laws forbiding the American colonies from constructing foundries or steel works. After the over throw of the British Crown things change rapidly. Small steel works popped up, and the production of steel and iron tools were manufactured in the new country.

By the time the west was being opened up, America had its own knife company, with the John Russell Company, in Greenfield Massachusetts. According to Mr. Peterson, Russell on the average from 1840 to 1860, shipped five thousand dozen butcher knives west. This was the Russell butcher knife number 15, a six inch blade knife. Also shipped west was the number 1586 carving knife that had an eight inch blade.

Most folding knives of the period from the American revelution to the 1840's were of the simple large single blade jack type. I've seen lots of these types in the museums around Washington like the Smithsonian. By the time of the civil war (1861-65) things did not seen to chnge much. In the museums at Gettysburg, Sharpsburg, and Manassas, they have pocket knives recovered from the battle sites. Almost all of them are the simple single blade knife, not unlike a sodbuster. Once in a while you would see a barlow.

Bowie knives had a relitive narrow time period of real use. The advent of the Colt revolver after the Mexican War reduced the role of the large knife a great degree. They were never popular with the mountain men, who favored a practical working knife, and they were not popular with the people who made up the great migration west, like the homesteaders who needed practical working tools that did not cost alot. And contrary to Hollywood, cowboys did not carry them because being bucked off a horse while wearing a large sharp bowie knife presents a dangerous situtation in itself. In fact the stockman was birthed by the cattle knife, which came from a simple clasp knife. Way safer on a horse.

The heyday of the Bowie knife was about 1835 to about the first year of the civil war.

I read an article sometime back that from 1850 to 1880 the most popular folding knife shipped west was the John Russell barlow. After 1880, more specialized types of pocket knives started to appear.

Butcher knives, barlows, and simple clasp knives seem to be what most people really used then.
 
I'll bet there were a lot of the old I. Wilson butcher knives around as well.
 
Jackknife has pretty much nailed it historically. The knives I have seen at trappers museums were simple butcher knives, re-shaped for for a particular purpose. Many of these knives came down from the Hudsons Bay Company through the early trading posts. About the closest I have seen in a modern knife would be a Dexter Knife # 1376. I see a few of these at rendezvous and black powder shoots.
 
Jackknife has pretty much nailed it historically. The knives I have seen at trappers museums were simple butcher knives, re-shaped for for a particular purpose. Many of these knives came down from the Hudsons Bay Company through the early trading posts. About the closest I have seen in a modern knife would be a Dexter Knife # 1376. I see a few of these at rendezvous and black powder shoots.


That is pretty much right on for the Fur Trade Era. The simple butcher knife, The Green River knife gained popularity at about the end of the Fur Trade & begining of the Buffalo Robe era. Neither Era lasted very long.

Another Dave
 
The American Indian obsidian knives I've seen have been absolutely beautiful. In fact, I'm thinking of making one. You can buy kits for little less than a pre-made knife, but on the other hand, I've got lava and fossil beds about 2 hours from me (central/eastern OR). Maybe time to start knapping.

-- Sam
 
That is pretty much right on for the Fur Trade Era. The simple butcher knife, The Green River knife gained popularity at about the end of the Fur Trade & begining of the Buffalo Robe era. Neither Era lasted very long.

Another Dave

Dave, the fur trade era never ended up here in the Catskills, we still have our annual get togthers to boil and wax traps. It's all about tradition, and the fur prices aint bad either.
Dave
 
Thanks very much jackknife - excellent information. That book is exactly what I'd like to read. I'll definitely start looking for it in ebay etc.

Thanks to everyone else too who replied. Very interesting information and discussion. The obsidian knives looks amazing. Have to read more about them as well. It's very interesting to see how the knives have developed in the last 3-4 centuries and where the designs actually come from.

--
northernlight
 
The advent of the Colt revolver after the Mexican War reduced the role of the large knife a great degree.

Sooooooo true! The funny thing is, you would think from some of the threads posted on other parts of this forum by Rambo weekend warrior types, that firearms have gotten less and less reliable in the years since. I mean, why else would today's wannabee soldiers of fortune need a 14-inch "fighting knife," right? Fact is, even in the Civil War, edged weapons accounted for a tiny fraction of battlefield casualties. Fastforward 140+ years ...... If I'm in battle and it gets down to knife fighting, that means at LEAST two firearms have failed: mine and the other guy's. :D

Lastly, if memory serves me well, cowboy classic "Lonesome Dove," AKA one of the greatest books ever (!) has some good knife content, including one passage where Gus dismisses the utility of knives as weapons (but says he carries a large plain clasp knife, mainly for cutting his toe nails).
 
I've been wanting to know what kind of knives "mt. men" carried in Colorado around 1860 for years
Thanks for the info Jackknife!!!
Great thread
Totally up my alley
I'm gonna try and find that book on Amazon/Ebay/Abebooks......
 
... if memory serves me well, cowboy classic "Lonesome Dove," AKA one of the greatest books ever (!) has some good knife content, including one passage where Gus dismisses the utility of knives as weapons (but says he carries a large plain clasp knife, mainly for cutting his toe nails).

I hope this won't be regarded as hijacking this thread. Lonesome Dove is but one in a series of four books written by Larry McMurtry. If I remember the chronological order correctly, one book preceded Lonesome Dove in the time line, and two more followed it. That should help you locate them all by their publishing dates I think. They are all fantastic stories! Anyone who is really interested in the American West is missing the boat if they don't read all four of them, too. I'm sorry, but I can't recite the titles of them now because I passed them on to another friend after I read them twice a few years apart. The bad guys in the Lonesome Dove series make today's bad guys look like Sunday School teachers for the most part. Larry McMurtry wrote several other books besides the Lonesome Dove series, but those four are the only ones I've read. I keep meaning to go down to the used paperback book store in my town and look for more books by that author. I highly recommend the four Lonesome Dove books to anyone who is willing and able to read long, detailed stories and who won't turn white and pass out at the sometimes gruesome descriptions of what took place back then.
 
I hope this won't be regarded as hijacking this thread. Lonesome Dove is but one in a series of four books written by Larry McMurtry. If I remember the chronological order correctly, one book preceded Lonesome Dove in the time line, and two more followed it. That should help you locate them all by their publishing dates I think. They are all fantastic stories! Anyone who is really interested in the American West is missing the boat if they don't read all four of them, too. I'm sorry, but I can't recite the titles of them now because I passed them on to another friend after I read them twice a few years apart. The bad guys in the Lonesome Dove series make today's bad guys look like Sunday School teachers for the most part. Larry McMurtry wrote several other books besides the Lonesome Dove series, but those four are the only ones I've read. I keep meaning to go down to the used paperback book store in my town and look for more books by that author. I highly recommend the four Lonesome Dove books to anyone who is willing and able to read long, detailed stories and who won't turn white and pass out at the sometimes gruesome descriptions of what took place back then.

Hey doc, the books you are reffering to are Streets Of Larado, Dead Man's Walk, and Comanche Moon. All are stories of the different chapters of the lives of Gus and Woodrow. Larry McMurtry wrote them as a continuing saga of the lives of these two Texas Rangers from the time they met as vey young men to the end of the trail.

I have to agree with you 100%, they are outstanding examples of fine writting.
 
Hey doc, the books you are reffering to are Streets Of Larado, Dead Man's Walk, and Comanche Moon. All are stories of the different chapters of the lives of Gus and Woodrow. Larry McMurtry wrote them as a continuing saga of the lives of these two Texas Rangers from the time they met as vey young men to the end of the trail. I have to agree with you 100%, they are outstanding examples of fine writting.

Thanks for filling in the gaps in my often tired, old memory. I was given my first three books in the Lonesome Dove series by a good friend of mine who had read and enjoyed them. Part of the reason was that my first name is Woodrow, too. I later found the fourth in the series on my own. You've got just a few years on me, but we think remarkably alike. I always look forward to reading anything you write. I still think your stories and essays should be published.
 
Thanks for filling in the gaps in my often tired, old memory. I was given my first three books in the Lonesome Dove series by a good friend of mine who had read and enjoyed them. Part of the reason was that my first name is Woodrow, too. I later found the fourth in the series on my own. You've got just a few years on me, but we think remarkably alike. I always look forward to reading anything you write. I still think your stories and essays should be published.

As do I. I was born and raised in the old (and I do mean 'old') Central Valley of California.

A lot of our history, particularly our oral history, is being lost.
 
What, no pics here to illustrate?

Here's a modern made Russell Green River. Still made in carbon steel, still a simple, straight forward design, and still as practical a knife as they were when they went west by the wagon loads.

Russell-Green-River.jpg


Quoting from Levine's guide, who is quoting from Perry D. Frazer in an article entitled "Canoeing" in the May 27, 1897, Shooting and Fishing Magazine:

"The Apache Indians taught me to use a common butcher knife in camp, and for any knife larger than a pocket size, one will not go far wrong in selecting a first class butcher knife, with a common, straight, wood handle, and a broad, thin bade, slightly pointed. Five inches should be the limit in length of the blade, and four inches, will be better...."

Frazer continues on praising the Apache's way of sheathing the knife in a deep pouch with just enough of the knife handle exposed to let you grip it with thumb and forefinger. He also appreciated, and I'm sure Jackknife and his mentor Mr. Van would also appreciate, the Apache practice of carrying a small whetstone in the same sheath in a separate pocket.

Still makes sense.
 
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