Knives on School Grounds - Disinformation/Misrepresentation??

Spey

Spey

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​Knives on School Grounds - Disinformation/Misrepresentation??

The purpose of this post is to ask review from those who may know more than I, and to provide enlightenment for those potentially misinformed by outside influences. Links are provided for review.

EDIT:
This thread is NOT related to student possession (related to others specifically adults, parents, etc. +18-aged at primary & secondary schools).

Do you feel free to carry knives on school grounds? Have you been approached by others telling you that you are not allowed to do so? My answer is yes to both questions, and I am tired of the misinformation floating people’s boats and this is an attempt to do something about it.

I have had a number of discussions/debates with others (local residents, school employees/officials, etc.) where they state knives are not allowed in schools and/or on school grounds (students, parents, employees, etc. all the same). Employees have asked school principals and superintendents, all have supported a basic zero tolerance for knives on school grounds. This is either out of ignorance, or intentional misdirection. It is interesting that even showing these people the data (link below to OSPI statement, example for where I live) that they still believe or want to believe it’s illegal and will not change their opinion.

Today, I recently read a publicized/written statement (from knife rights organization AKTI - American Knife & Tool Institute) basically stating similar (possibly a situation where they are uninformed or maybe like some of the gun rights organizations doing so to make things appears worse than they are - dis-information to gain support). Clicking on other states appears to illustrate similar misinformation and/or misrepresentation.

AKTI - American Knife & Tool Institute
I Selected Washington State from this link http://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/
To get here http://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/washington/
To read these statements:
1. Quick Legal Facts: Schools: Knives and other dangerous weapons prohibited on school grounds.
2. Schools: Knives and other dangerous weapons prohibited on school grounds. RCW 9.41.280.

Research on the specific RCW’s (Revised Codes of Washington)

RCW 9.41.280 Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities—Penalty—Exceptions.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.280
Does not even mention knife or knives, but references RCW 9.41.250 (link below).

RCW 9.41.250 Dangerous weapons—Penalty.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.250
Only mentions slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or spring blade knife; dagger, dirk, pistol, suppressor (no references to the average knife most typically carry).

Example below debunking popular opinion of those I talk to, and also the impression I get from reading AKTI statements referenced above:
Washington Public Schools Website
OSPI (Office of Superintendent of Public Schools – State of Washington)
http://www.k12.wa.us/Safetycenter/Weapons/default.aspx
School Safety Center – Weapons and Schools
Knives: Except as provided under RCW 9.41.280, state law does not prohibit the possession of common pocket knives or other sharp tools on school grounds. However, school policies and rules do typically prohibit students from possessing knives on school grounds or at school events. Local ordinances may also prohibit minors from possessing knives – either on or off of school grounds.
Quote from above:
“… state law does not prohibit the possession of common pocket knives or other sharp tools on school grounds. However, school policies and rules do typically prohibit students from possessing knives …”

I do understand local jurisdictions (county and city codes) can further define knives as dangerous weapons and/or limit based on blade length, etc., and that additional restrictions can run concurrent with state and federal laws.
Example: Federal Way, WA 6.25.030 Weapons prohibited on liquor sale premises - includes any knife with a blade length of 3” or more.
 
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I'm not following.

Are you saying that these school DO NOT have a zero tolerance policy, and yet people believe they do? :confused:
 
I leave my knife in my truck if I need to go into my son's school. This is not due to any law I have or have not seen posted, but out of respect for the institution's obvious dislike of them. There is a uniformed police officer there all day so I do not require my knife for defence, nor will I likely need a tool during my short stay. Schools have had a rough time of it these last few years with violence and i have no problem leaving it in my truck. There are venues worth fighting in and there are those that aren't. I don't feel this is a worthy fight. In fact, I would prefer metal detectors and armed security in all schools to protect our students instead of our judges and state workers. Now you want to talk about a college campus and we've got some common ground. 😉
 
Spey said:
​Knives on School Grounds - Disinformation/Misrepresentation??

The purpose of this post is to ask review from those who may know more than I, and to provide enlightenment for those potentially misinformed by outside influences. Links are provided for review.

Do you feel free to carry knives on school grounds? Have you been approached by others telling you that you are not allowed to do so? My answer is yes to both questions, and I am tired of the misinformation floating people’s boats and this is an attempt to do something about it.

I have had a number of discussions/debates with others (local residents, school employees/officials, etc.) where they state knives are not allowed in schools and/or on school grounds (students, parents, employees, etc. all the same). Employees have asked school principals and superintendents, all have supported a basic zero tolerance for knives on school grounds. This is either out of ignorance, or intentional misdirection. It is interesting that even showing these people the data (link below to OSPI statement, example for where I live) that they still believe or want to believe it’s illegal and will not change their opinion.

Today, I recently read a publicized/written statement (from knife rights organization AKTI - American Knife & Tool Institute) basically stating similar (possibly a situation where they are uninformed or maybe like some of the gun rights organizations doing so to make things appears worse than they are - dis-information to gain support). Clicking on other states appears to illustrate similar misinformation and/or misrepresentation.

AKTI - American Knife & Tool Institute
I Selected Washington State from this link http://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/
To get here http://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/washington/
To read these statements:
1. Quick Legal Facts: Schools: Knives and other dangerous weapons prohibited on school grounds.
2. Schools: Knives and other dangerous weapons prohibited on school grounds. RCW 9.41.280.

Research on the specific RCW’s (Revised Codes of Washington)

RCW 9.41.280 Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities—Penalty—Exceptions.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.280
Does not even mention knife or knives, but references RCW 9.41.250 (link below).

RCW 9.41.250 Dangerous weapons—Penalty.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.250
Only mentions slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or spring blade knife; dagger, dirk, pistol, suppressor (no references to the average knife most typically carry).

Example below debunking popular opinion of those I talk to, and also the impression I get from reading AKTI statements referenced above:
Washington Public Schools Website
OSPI (Office of Superintendent of Public Schools – State of Washington)
http://www.k12.wa.us/Safetycenter/Weapons/default.aspx
School Safety Center – Weapons and Schools
Knives: Except as provided under RCW 9.41.280, state law does not prohibit the possession of common pocket knives or other sharp tools on school grounds. However, school policies and rules do typically prohibit students from possessing knives on school grounds or at school events. Local ordinances may also prohibit minors from possessing knives – either on or off of school grounds.
Quote from above:
“… state law does not prohibit the possession of common pocket knives or other sharp tools on school grounds. However, school policies and rules do typically prohibit students from possessing knives …”

I do understand local jurisdictions (county and city codes) can further define knives as dangerous weapons and/or limit based on blade length, etc., and that additional restrictions can run concurrent with state and federal laws.
Example: Federal Way, WA 6.25.030 Weapons prohibited on liquor sale premises - includes any knife with a blade length of 3” or more.
Click to expand...

I think that's the answer you're looking for.....

I mean we can take this right back to the second amendment, but laws, whether at the Federal/State/local/or even by just a single place, obviously do not follow that right.
 
So if it is not against the law what is the problem here? Where I live it is against the law. The only opinion I care about when deciding to carry or not carry a knife is what the law says.
 
marcinek said:
I'm not following.

Are you saying that these school DO NOT have a zero tolerance policy, and yet people believe they do? :confused:
Click to expand...

Or are you saying its not law, its just school policy. Six of one half a dozen of another. Students still cant have the knife on school grounds. That's not what people believe, its reality. Right or wrong. like it or not.

Now if you think that policy is wrong and want it changed then you need to present evidence to the schools showing them that it is wrong or misguided.

Just not quite following....
 
Oh! Oh! Oh! You are saying that people believe you as an adult non-student cannot carry a knife on school grounds?....Is that it? Am I getting with the program? :thumbup:
 
marcinek said:
I'm not following.

Are you saying that these school DO NOT have a zero tolerance policy, and yet people believe they do? :confused:
Click to expand...

As it relates to knives, YES.
They "think" they have a zero tolerance policy (includes everyone), they verbally state they do, they give the impression they do, parents believe they do, but they do not. This creates a false sense of security, and unjustifiably creates a tense situation, etc. when a parent sees another use a pocket knife to cut a hamburger in half at a sports event.

marcinek said:
Or are you saying its not law, its just school policy. Six of one half a dozen of another. Students still cant have the knife on school grounds. That's not what people believe, its reality. Right or wrong. like it or not.

Now if you think that policy is wrong and want it changed then you need to present evidence to the schools showing them that it is wrong or misguided.

Just not quite following....
Click to expand...

marcinek said:
Oh! Oh! Oh! You are saying that people believe you as an adult non-student cannot carry a knife on school grounds?....Is that it? Am I getting with the program? :thumbup:
Click to expand...

YES, "people believe you as an adult non-student cannot carry a knife on school grounds", additionally school employees (teachers, principal, etc. also believe this).

Sorry for any confusion. I thought my 4th paragraph illustrated my point of contention - The employees of the school (teachers, principals, superintendents, etc.) believe there is a "zero tolerance" on knives and that this applies to all (includes: students, employees, and anyone visiting the facility, etc.) unless there may be some type of exclusion (police, firefighters, etc.). If that opinion (regarding legality) is challenged, they step back and say well ..., then maybe it's not specifically illegal so must just be school policy. Both are false as illustrated in my links.

Students are prohibited from possession of knives (over 18-y.o. poss. exclusion). Teachers & employees are not specifically referenced in the codes, but may be governed additionally by their specific contracts (school & union contracts etc.), but to my knowledge there are no additional inclusions (contracts to my knowledge default to state, county, federal laws on this). There is one school in our state that has actually promulgated written guidelines related to limiting non-student possession of knives on facilities (it's my assumption they are unaware this goes against our OSPI written statements on state and federal laws governing, and/or are simply attempting to do something they feel will make a safer environment).

My frustration is that there is a misguided perception that knives are part of some type of zero tolerance policy against weapons on school grounds (kinda like those zero tolerance signs related to "Gun Free Zone" as if the entire school, buildings, and property are safe from guns being present). BTW, these signs are also misguided in that they give the impression the entire property is a gun-free-zone, again a perception of zero tolerance for the entire property. I do not really want to get into the "gun free zone" issue here, and stay on smaller topic related to knives as this is a "blade" forum.
 
What got me started on this subject again (dealt with previously with my significant other - school employee who believed could not possess a pocket-knife, multi-tool, etc. at school, along with principal & superintendent of our district, etc.) was AKTI - American Knife & Tool Institute listing on their website stating what reads to be a zero tolerance on knives on school property specific to the state I live being incorrect (I.M.H.O.), and I believe similar to other states I checked on their site.

In general, the intentional false sense of security by giving the "impression" that there a laws protecting us (from things like pocket knives carried by average citizens) leads to a misinformed public. Even the idea that I/we should be prohibited from carrying a pocket knife is absurd in my mind.

I understand part the problem has been created by our own community, knife flicking and brandishing in public (that-guy who flips out his knife in the post office, ... then looks around to see what attention he collected) has given rise to others feeling threatened (similar to our situation related to the Federal Switch Blade Act and laws governing the Balisong, and in some states assisted-openers).

My posting here, is my attempt to make a positive difference by creating a level of awareness related to misinformation and parroting of such.
 
craytab said:
So if it is not against the law what is the problem here? Where I live it is against the law. The only opinion I care about when deciding to carry or not carry a knife is what the law says.
Click to expand...

craytab,

The "problem" is misinformation being passed on from one to another.
Specifically, what I read today (my link) on AKTI website as one example (specific to my state - what appears to be mis-information).

I thought that, in general, PA had fairly non-restrictive knife laws i.e. no specific blade length restrictions, balisongs ok, etc.

Are knives, related to possession on school grounds, somehow inclusively incorporated under a "weapons" designation?
I am interested to understand how/why a SAK or multi-tool with say a included 2" sharpened edge or any pocket-knife is by default against the law. I am wondering if the illegality is related to any sharpened edged tool or ...?

I understand that in many states switch-blades are by default classified a offensive weapons, and many times default back to the Federal Switchblade Act of 1958 unless specifically made legal by state statute like in Oregon for example. I believe there are specific rules on your books labeling all these types of knives inclusively and therefore making them illegal by broad designation.
 
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As a student (high school freshman now) I think I can offer a little bit of insight from a student's perspective.

I live in NJ where knife laws are pretty relaxed (for the Northeast anyway). When I was in 7th grade, I brought my Kershaw Blur to school by accident, had left it in my bag from the weekend prior. I've read NJ knife law several times- the Blur is 100% not illegal to carry for EDC/public use/etc. I showed a few of my bros and a girl I was friends with at the time- big mistake (girls talk). She told her friend and that friend told the school security guard the next day. As I was walking to lunch, the guard stopped me and patted me down, not finding anything. Of course I did not bring the knife to school that day because I had put it away the day before when I went home. The guard told me to take him to my locker so he could search it. He told me that if he found a knife on me or in my bag that we would be taking a trip to the police precinct. I did not have my knife on my person but the school eventually found circumstantial evidence of me having a knife at one point. I was KICKED OUT of that school within a few day's time. The guard told me clearly that it was illegal and things would have went a lot worse if he had found the knife in my bag.
 
AsianBeerCan,

It sounds like you learned a lesson.

Food for thought ..., the act of displaying a knife can fall under the term "brandishing", which can have additional legal negative consequences. Especially ..., if anyone feels threatened by your actions and decides to do something about it (like tell an authority).

Sorry to hear your story. However, all good lessons seem to cost time, money or both ;-)

It's great that you have "read NJ knife law". However, as related to your being a HS Freshman, I would urge you to consider the legalities related to being under 18, as the laws can be very different involving minors in possession. Additionally, be sure to review more than just your NJ state laws, as county and city laws can be more restrictive than the state & federal laws.



Regards,
 
AsianBeerCan said:
As a student (high school freshman now) I think I can offer a little bit of insight from a student's perspective.

I live in NJ where knife laws are pretty relaxed (for the Northeast anyway). When I was in 7th grade, I brought my Kershaw Blur to school by accident, had left it in my bag from the weekend prior. I've read NJ knife law several times- the Blur is 100% not illegal to carry for EDC/public use/etc. I showed a few of my bros and a girl I was friends with at the time- big mistake (girls talk). She told her friend and that friend told the school security guard the next day. As I was walking to lunch, the guard stopped me and patted me down, not finding anything. Of course I did not bring the knife to school that day because I had put it away the day before when I went home. The guard told me to take him to my locker so he could search it. He told me that if he found a knife on me or in my bag that we would be taking a trip to the police precinct. I did not have my knife on my person but the school eventually found circumstantial evidence of me having a knife at one point. I was KICKED OUT of that school within a few day's time. The guard told me clearly that it was illegal and things would have went a lot worse if he had found the knife in my bag.
Click to expand...

Huh?

1) Was there a zero tolerance policy at the school where and when this happened? Then, if you had a knife, it doesn't matter what the state law is. States dont have dress codes, but you can get tossed out of school for violating the dress code. Same thing.
2) Why did you feel compelled to show the knife off? If you aren't using it to cut something, and you whip it out because you think that's cool you are part of the problem.
3) You got thrown out because "...the school eventually found circumstantial evidence of me having a knife at one point." ? What does that even mean? Does that mean you got tossed for showing your knife off for no reason?
4) If the knife is not illegal for you to carry, it's not illegal, regardless of what the school security guard believes. You cannot get in legal trouble for something that's legal.

But you can get tossed from school for showing it off to your "bros" in the cafeteria.
 
Seems to me if carrying a knife is perfectly legal for you to do, and not against a school's zero tolerance policies, then carry the darn thing.

Sheesh.

Somebody tells you you cant, tell them "Yes I can."

If one cedes their right to do something legal, then that is their fault, not the fault of the people who misunderstand the laws/regulations.
 
Marcinek-
1- The school I was tossed out of was a private school, so you are correct, I was wrong for assuming that it would strictly follow state law.
2- This was my first knife and I was 12 at the time, it was indeed a stupid thing to do. I would not have done the same thing today.
3- Yes.
I'm not trying to blame the system here- I acted foolishly and got what was coming to me. "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" as they say. I was just trying to prove a point in saying that knives on school grounds are generally a bad idea.
As the old school I went to was a private school- I was able to switch to public school quickly. In both the middle and high school handbooks knives are mentioned under the "weapons" category and it is stated that if anyone is caught with one the local PD will get involved.
-asian
 
I think these people (basically whoever does this sort of thing) are getting appeased too much. One has to wonder: "What are they looking to do with all the advantage they're trying to rake in for themselves?" Especially if a PARENT has a knife on him/her when in the school, that's for the school to generally presume is okay & forget about. They don't get to form their own opinions & run with them, in my opinion. This includes when there are exceptions that people figure it would be political incorrect to mention.

I noticed something: Not that long ago, a lot of people had knives in schools & nobody got cut or stabbed. People didn't usually pull knives on each other in fights in school when I was growing up. Now, there's a whole big thing on "weapons in school" & yet there are people that have thirty pounds of them on their belt roaming the halls. These people can & do attack the students, even when those students are 6 years old. What is someone to do if or when those people go off? Write a letter? An armed instigator is attacking a child & at least has a pistol that they can shoot an intervener & hit bystanders with- how is someone supposed to successfully counter those actions?
 
Wolfeye said:
I think these people (basically whoever does this sort of thing) are getting appeased too much. One has to wonder: "What are they looking to do with all the advantage they're trying to rake in for themselves?" Especially if a PARENT has a knife on him/her when in the school, that's for the school to generally presume is okay & forget about. They don't get to form their own opinions & run with them, in my opinion. This includes when there are exceptions that people figure it would be political incorrect to mention.

I noticed something: Not that long ago, a lot of people had knives in schools & nobody got cut or stabbed. People didn't usually pull knives on each other in fights in school when I was growing up. Now, there's a whole big thing on "weapons in school" & yet there are people that have thirty pounds of them on their belt roaming the halls. These people can & do attack the students, even when those students are 6 years old. What is someone to do if or when those people go off? Write a letter? An armed instigator is attacking a child & at least has a pistol that they can shoot an intervener & hit bystanders with- how is someone supposed to successfully counter those actions?
Click to expand...

Wolfeye,
Thank you for your comments.

RE: "They don't get to form their own opinions & run with them, in my opinion."
I agree, "they don't get to", but therein lies the crux of why I took the time to post this thread (they are, and they are getting away with it). I am not going to rehash the how's, why's, and who's in this reply as I have already illustrated in previous posts illustrating that in our district school teachers, principals and superintendent are all supporting this false narrative (zero tolerance on knives for ALL), also illustrating at least one school in our state has additionally "promulgated written guidelines related to limiting non-student possession of knives on facilities which directly goes against our OSPI written statements on state and federal laws governing, and is as such creating a narrative that is actually different than our state laws and OSPI (Office of Superintendent of Public Schools – State of Washington). It has already happened, they have formed their own opinions and are running with them. When and where I see fit (a person willing and capable of learning) I explain to them and also show the written documentation. I keep copies with me, in the event I personally have an issue or opportunity to correct this false narrative.

What really got me going this time here, was what I read and posted about related to the AKTI website, as I interpret this to be misinformation coming from a place that should be charged with getting it right in the favor of knife owners/supporters. In my mind, this is a dis-service to the community they represent.

RE: "What is someone to do if or when those people go off? Write a letter? An armed instigator is attacking a child & at least has a pistol that they can shoot an intervener & hit bystanders with- how is someone supposed to successfully counter those actions?"

My goal was to keep this contained to knife related discussion, as this is a knife forum ... but I will take a minute to answer your questions from my perspective and from the perspective of those I know and trust with regard to how to best address a scenario like you present.

Become informed & get involved, attempt to make a difference! If I were there (active situation) I would. In lieu of being in an "active" situation, we are discussing the subject here in attempt to make a difference through exposure, and open discussion.

I as well as most members of the WPS (WA State Patrol) that I have spoken with, believe in preparedness. I have had lengthy discussion with WSP members and Firefighters related to school related protocols that become auto-enacted should there be an active-shooter scenario on school grounds (I have also had discussions with city & county police and will say I believe their opinions vary). There is a consensus of those charged with active duties in these types of scenarios that armed/trained staff are a potential solution. I know officers involved in the training of such programs. Example: Active Shooter - The police are called after a crime is committed and there is an average response time for them to arrive. Upon arrival there is a whole host of things (protocols) they must initially address before any action to actually stop a perp can be effective. As we have witnessed in past years, this time cost lives of innocent people and children. An armed staff member (trained in the specifics of an unfolding event, possibly/hopefully more than one ...) can be effective immediately potentially neutralizing the situation early on. In no way am I making a case that this should be a requirement for staff/teachers (very much a voluntary option), but an option for those willing to put forth the efforts towards training and accepting the huge responsibility and service as a means of effective action. It is my hope these programs become more widespread and look forward to positive results.

I will close with my goal being to raise awareness; and slow, halt, potentially reverse mis-information that I see, hear & feel.

Regards,
 
Spey: You're welcome. I feel that this is a part of a general trend to vitiate people's capacities to provide for themselves- particularly for their combative goals. It's oddly similar to the history of a lot of martial arts I've heard about- people are cruelly oppressed & barred from protecting/revenging themselves by those that conduct government activities. I notice there's usually something pretty bad under that "anti-violence" exterior that people pretend to have, too (usually it's apparent when they don't get their way- at that point, they frequently direct others to do violence on their behalf).

How do they even know you have a blade on you? Metal detectors? I'd think it would at least cross some minds to destroy the metal detectors- publicly or privately. That's a major part of this type of problem- the concept of ownership. The concept that they "own" something, so someone else has no say in how it's used- including if it's used against them. This also gets applied to themselves, of course.
 
I'll tell you my approach when I have to go inside school buildings (elementary, middle and high school)..... I carry a knife as I always do. I just don't flash it around and I am certainly not a student at any of these school levels. The policy is in place for STUDENTS.
 
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