kris experts??

beoram

beoram

Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Messages
1,780
Hello again all - picked up a k(e)ris(s) fairly cheaply recently and was wondering if anyone can tell me anything about it (mostly, is it just a cheap knock-off; as most likely it is, just like my first khuk :) :o :)).

It's a wooden handle & wooden scabbard with some sort of (silverish) metal fittings. The blade isn't dull, but it isn't ultra-sharp either and it's a bit of rust on it.

Here's some pics:

kr-un1.jpg


kr-un2.jpg


kr-sh.jpg


kr-han.JPG


kr-bol.jpg


kr-bl.jpg



thanks for any info. cheers all, B.
 
Hello

I dont know very much but here goes.

The blade isnt pattern welded like Indonesian and Malaysian kris I have seen. ALL the good ones from these countries are. Earlier this year I had the great honour of seeing some 30 different kris while in Indonesia. Some of them were very old and valuable-$40,000 price range for the blade alone-no fittings. All of them had distinctive pamor ( the pattern produced during the manufacture of the blade ).

The fittings are very basic. Again, the good examples tend to have fine quality fittings. Intricate carving, precious metals and gems can be found on some of them. Not surprising since the kris were a status symbol.

The one you have there looks similar to Filipino kris I have seen and that is what I would bet on.

Value? I dont know for sure. I would suspect not a lot but to be sure you would have to get it examined by a qualified expert.

Hope this was of some help.
 
Hello

This one looks filipino to me but if you really want to know for sure here is the guy who can tell you everything about keris:

Alan Maisey
P.O. Box 197, Vincentia, 2540, Nsw Australia
Phone: 2-44437997

He is a great guy - and the only western trained in the traditional Indonesian art of making keris that I know about - and will clear any doubt you have.
 
I'm not really familiar with that particular knife, but I also think it may be from the Philippines.

If you want to learn about the Keris go here........
...http://home1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/

for a start. Don't gasp and back out of the opening page as the 2 hilts shown are very unusual.:cool:
Paul's a really great guy and doesn't mind talking about Keris when you can catch him not too busy.
And Paul's pages can teach you an awful lot about the Keris. I don't really know much about them myself except that I love their exotic shape and mysticism.:rolleyes:
 
Beoram,
I'm no expert but what you have is a cheapy Gunong (philipino kriss from Mindanao). I have three on my desk as I write (presents from my crew)which I use as paper cutters. I also have a pretty one at home.
You can see it here:
http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=95586978203&n=134641984
It's towards the end of the album. It looks good but still is a tourist's blade.
The expert for this kind of knives is Federico he truly has a deep knowledge of Philipino edeged weapons and Moro history
Saluti,
Fausto
 
thanks everyone for the responses - pretty much as I supposed. And the consensus seems to be that it's Filipino rather than Indonesian or Malaysian. But I didn't pay much for it (US$20 or $25), so I didn't expect much.

Fausto - yes, it does look very similar to the one at the end of your album, except yours is much nicer ;) :( :) .

thanks for the link Yvsa, interesting--I'll have to bookmark it.

on a slight tangent, I thought there was an Indian style sword/knife which is similar to the kris, but maybe it's just that India imported kris knives at some point (or I'm completing imagining it ;) ).

thanks all again, cheers, B.
 
Ill chime in on your gunong/punal. Punal is a spanish word, and gunong is supposedly the more correct term but I have no idea which tribe it comes from. You have a typical tourist gunong of recent make. While not traditional theres nothing wrong with them. The one's especially from the 60s are of good enough quality. Real antique gunongs are tiny, and usually quite plain. They were used more or less as a last ditch concealed knife (mostly hidden in sash though sometimes also hidden in the turban), and some were probably used for more utilitarian purposes. I actually like some of the tourist gunongs, as many display extremely good chasing/repousse work on the fittings.

As for the Indian connection some have speculated that the kris form entered into Malaysia/Indonesia from the Indian influence. Before Islam came to the region the area was controlled by Hindu leader's with strong ties to India. However whether or not the kris was definitely introduced by India is up to debate. If I remember correctly the first actual documented kris to be found in Java was in the 15th or 14th century (I may be off here since Im trying to write this from memory), however there is some contention due to some archeological findings in some sculptures that the kris form is much older. There still is much debate, so its not something that can really be easily determined. The man to really ask about the evolution of the kris is Alan Maissey. He is probably the foremost expert on kris in the world. He does have a pertinent article on the EEWRS (Ethnographic Edge Weapons Resource Site) which can be found on http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/index.html. Probably the best person to ask about Moro weapons would be Cecil Quirino of Kris Cutlery, he is probably the foremost expert on Moro Weaponry in the world.

Well hope this helped.
 
This looks like a punal that is listed on Erik's Edge antique weapons site, a link on Frederico's post.

Ryan
 
And especially history.

It seems that most cultures at some time or another had some sort of 'Flame' style blade appear, usually ordered by or gifted
(by royalty) to an individual I understand????:confused:

I have seen pix of different 'Flame' type swords that IIRC were German, English and I'm pretty sure Spanish.
I haven't set down and thought about what purpose or reason the flame style of swords were made for and I would really like to know.....
Perhaps the blades were more for slashing than thrusting and therefore more efficient?

The reason for the Keris to be made in the wavy or 'Flame' style as it was explained to me is that the people in that part of the country, Java, Malaysia and the rest of the archipeligo in that part of the world didn't have that much access to steel and so used it to their best advantage.
A thin, narrow piece of steel that's encased in iron and nickle and then created into the wavy, flame style will cut a much wider gash or stab wound than the same amount of steel in a longer thinner blade would otherwise and will take the same amount of steel to
make.
I haven't set down to think if the amount of steel needed to make a Keris would be less or more in quanity than it would have been to went ahead and make a straight blade the same width and length as the finished Keris would be.
ie.The extra length of the thin and narrow steel making up for the extra width and shorter blade still encased in iron and nickle......
I hope that makes sense anyway....
My math skills aren't up to that, even with a super dooper computer.:rolleyes:
 
Hello

Here is a page from Drs. Hamzuri's "Keris" book (wich I got from Alan Maisey some 10 years ago) showing a non wavy-bladed keris, just to explain that - even though most of us Westerners think the opposite - keris and wavy blades are not the same. But those wavy blades look really damn good!!!!
 

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I'm glad you brought that up Ivan. I was going to address the straight blade Keris and then the thought got away from me.:(
And that was the argument I used when asking about the wavy style Keris.
I was told the straight blades were usually longer and thinner than the Flame style blade and from what I've seen that's generally correct.
Only recently have I supposedly learned that the straight blades are considered to be the forerunner of the wavy or 'Flame' style blade.

There's just too many interests, too little time and with some subjects the information can be rare and good proven information rarer still.
As with the kamis and their story, "It came from the clouds over 10,000 feet high and 10,000 years ago."
And sometimes that's the best answer one is ever going to get.:rolleyes:
And perhaps sometimes that's the only answer there is.:rolleyes: ;)

When it comes to knives the history goes way back beyond even oral records.
I can imagine a convention of sharp edged tool makers way way way way back when...........

"Flint is *the* Absolute Best there is!!!!!"

"No you dumbass, Chert *IS* The Absolute best!!!! There is less edge chipping and it penetrates bones better!!!!"

"Oh you Ignorant Bastids *Obsidian* *IS* the *Absolute* Best* Ever*!!!!!! It does have it's drawbacks, but the surgeons prefer it for trepanning skulls to let out evil spirits found in the heads of some people in our part of the world!!!!!!"
"It's *Absolutely* The Sharpest material in the New Stone Age!!!!"

And then from the pimply faced kid over in the corner with a S*** eatin grin on his face....... "Hay'ull you guys don't know anything about anything!!!!! Have you heard about this new material they're calling *Bronze*? No? Well let me tell you....
It's not quite as sharp as the obsidian, but it doesn't chip even nearly anything like flint does and everyone knows how difficult some flint is to work. And it lasts forever and you can, Get This!!! ***Actually Pry With It!!!!!***"
The worlds very First Sharpened Pry Bar.!!!!!!!:D :p :rolleyes: :eek:
 
Also, after I posted here today I kept thinking about keris and remebered about a conversation I had with a good Indonesian friend when I still lived in Minnesotta (1991). I asked him about the keris' uses and he told me that it was basically a weapon, never a tool, and that its use was strictly as a status simbol for the noble, rich man. I asked him if it was still used and he told me that only by the older people, in their waist line behind their back (if I recall correctly), and that the yourger wealthy people would reather use something more updated as a status simbol, like a BMW...
 
On the topic of what constitutes a kris, many collectors dont go by whether its wavy or not but usually define it as being wide in the base and being double edged (kinda nebulous here which is part of the reason the dating controversy exists since the statues in the midst of the controversy can be interpretted in many different ways). The vast majority of kris arent wavy but are straight. As for why this developed so, who knows. While nickle bearing meteorite or just plain nickle comprise the classical white metal in the classical Javanese/Malay keris, Moro kris more often than not are made of just varying layers of steel (though I have seen some with nickle pamors) and so do some Malay keris. Especially after a certain time period Javanese/Malay keris became more of an art form than a weapon, and its during this time meteorite/nickel took greater precedence. As for straight kris being thinner than wavy kris, that has more to due with regional style than anything else. A Maranao straight kris will almost always be much thicker than a Sulu wavy kris, and a Sulu straight kris will be much thinner than a Maguindanao wavy kris. Its regional tastes, (though differing kris sizes in Moro history also is dependent on age).
 
I knew we could depend on you to shine some light on the Keris!!!!:)

Are the names you are mentioning like Maranao and Sulu tribal, area, or something different and indigneous to the area?
I can understand tribal preferences easily enough.:)

The old timers arrows were personalized not only by tribal differences, but also in other areas. If a man was a member of a warrior society he would put that mark on his arrows along with his own.
If an individual, say Two Dogs, shot you with an arrow last week and then shot you again 20 years later you would know the arrow was his from the designs and markings on it.
 
Maranao, and Sulu can be viewed either as Sultanates, Tribal grouping, and/or regional locale to some extent. There is the Sulu archipelago, controlled by the Sulu Sultanate, inhabitted by the Tausug tribe who are often called Sulu's. Realistically though its rather complex. One sticking point that many of us who are trying to make a study of these weapon's have in identifying the tribes in the area is that many of the tribes intermingle, the varying relationships they have with eachother and there are varying levels of identification (ie. someone may say theyre Sulu only referring to local, or referring to acknowledgement of the Sultanate, but may not be of the Sulu tribe). It really depends who you ask, and how you define a people. Some people say there are twenty plus Moro tribes, others will say 13, and then others will say 6. Then the ethno-linguistic differentions can push the number into who knows how many.
However, generally when I refer to either Sulu, Maguindanao, or Maranao in the context of weaponry I typically am referring to the more inclusive tribe/sultanate/region combination.
 
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