Kris vs. Keris

S

Seax

Joined
Nov 24, 2000
Messages
42
Greetings:

Could anyone enlighten me as to when the steel blade came into use in the Philippino islands?
When did they come up with the Kris?

I also would like to know a bit more about the relation between the Kris and the Javanese Keris

Any comments would be most welcome.

Seax


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Walk on.
 
Seax, I don't have any dates handy but mostly likely the Kris/Keris exchange happened after the Sri-Vishayan Empire, where Indonesia had influence over the Philippines. The Muslim Kris is a modified design but IMO, is actually stronger then the Keris dagger/spearhead.

Two good books on this are Frey's The Kris and Cato's Moros and their Swords.
 
to be honest i dont really know the kris to be anything more than a collectors items in the philippines. mostly they came from indonesia. i never met anyone with a technique especially for this blade, but chopping, thin thrusting, short thick, and thin slicing blades are more likely to be found because the techniques reflect what is used there.

you can find krises to buy there, but i think if it was a widely used blade, it was so long ago the technique is no longer around.
 
As I recall, " Asian Fighting Arts" has an extensive section on the Kris and it's importance to Indonesian culture.
 
I would hope that the use of the kris hasnt completely died. Im sure that some in the southern islands probably still know techniques specific to the kris. There are many well documented cases of muslim juramentados still using the kris up to the 1930s. As for the evolution of the muslim kris as to why its developed differently as a slashing weapon vs the more dagger thrusting styles of the javanese keris is something I have no idea on. As for keris age its postulated in the malay penninsula the first anscestors of what later became the modern malay keris we all know and love went no earlier than the 11th or 12th century. Of course thats all just theory, but its a good guess if no examples were found dating of earlier dates that must be near the point of origin. Also, the kris is specific to that region of the Philippines and not just the muslim tribes. Other non-muslim tribes on mindanao appear to have kris blades. I would add the book Filipino Martial Culture as another source of potential information.
 
My teacher Pendekar Sanders who has a website for his Pukulan Cimande Pencak Silat has an authoritative textbook on kris lore plus a unique videotape of techniques unique to the kris. I have found Mr Sanders to be unusually generous with his knowledge. I have had other martial arts teachers who withold knowledge to milk students or for fear that a student will become a challenge to him. Mr Sanders is the opposite, he wants me and others to be even better if we can work hard. As for me I am happy just to be better than I was yesterday.
 
Tao monkey, Pendekar Sander's website is www.cimande.com. I have studied with others over my lifetime but cimande is the real deal as to combat. I only wish I could have studied pencak silat as a young teen back in Detroit. Life would have been even more interesting. I actually use to use korean karate techniques on the street. Thank the Good Lord I didnt get killed useing that stuff.
 
Tao monkey, type in the url yourself. I clicked on the connector in my post and it didnt work. for some reason a back slash is added. so just type wwww.cimande.com
I just by coincidence received a Sanders tape I have been waiting for. On the tape is pedang( Indo sword/machete) combined with knife, kujang or karambit in the left hand. A little like a Javan espada y daga, if you will. Sometimes, I wonder why I am so fascinated with blades when firearms rule? To me, it was indeed a step backward when weapons that could kill at a distance were invented, paraphrasing the lament of the dying knight with the arrow in his chest at the battle of Crecy, I think. BTW, the kujang is a sleeper of a large knife. I believe it might be a better design than the bowie. It has some subtle design features that show the inventor had much experience fighting with blades. The bowie is of course justifiably famous and I would be safe with either blade but the kujang is very special if you know the secrets of its special employment. If you ever want something unique buy a kujang you definitely will be the first one on your block.

 
:
Kujang, what's a kujang?
smile.gif

That's one I've never heard of before, but then I am still discovering edged weapons
from other countries I have never heard of before. It helps keep life interesting.
cool.gif


Can you post a pic or a link that might have a pic or description of a kujang?
It sounds interesting and especially since I am very fond of knives from SeAsia as well as other exotic knives like the Nepali Khukuri.

Thanks.

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>>>>---Yvsa-G@WebTV.net---->®

"VEGETARIAN".............
Indin word for lousy hunter.
 
The cimande url above has instruction on the kujang. I dont have a scanner yet. a google search for pencak silat kujang will give you a picture. The kujang is the signature knife of pukulan cimande pencak silat style. It is a large knife with a double recurve, a clip point for thrusting,nasty serrations on a portion of the back for back slashing. The handle is tropical wood carved elaborately with a tigers head. the ears of the tiger are for striking. Pendekar Sanders imports them from Java. Mine cost $150 with carved wooden scabbard. You can have one custom made thru an empuh(swordmaker, bladesmith)Mr Sanders knows in Java made from a meteorite or stellite as you see in a kris with the pamor or pattern of nickel on iron. We like snap cuts a lot and this knife will bury into firewood with just a snapl cut. I like mine a great deal. It is an interesting blade to practice with as there are so many techniques it works well with.
 
The first url didn't work because you put an extra dot at the end -- which you meant as the period at the end of the sentence, but computers are not smart enough to figure out what you meant; they only understand what you tell them.... The second didn't work because it has an extra w. This one will work:
smile.gif

http://www.cimande.com/


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-Cougar :{)
Use of Weapons
 
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