Lab Note: White-Out Not Needed For Canister Damascus

[mjranum]

I've seen a couple of folks using White Out(tm) to line the interior of cans for canister damascus.

That is not necessary; there's a cheaper solution and this is it:

Here's the scoop. White Out is collodion (nitrocellulose dissolved in ether and alcohol) with titanium dioxide white pigment in it. It totally makes sense what is going on: the titanium dioxide coating will not weld and acts as a "resist" on the inside of the can. I recognize the smell of collodion immediately because I used to use collodion in wet plate ambrotype process photography. So, that got me thinking about making my own paint with titanium white in it - and then I remembered KILZ and Zinnser cover-up white paint: that has to have a bunch of titanium dioxide in it - so there's already a product out there that is exactly right for the job.

Today I tested that, by spraying the interior of a canister I was making with a spritz of KILZ. Then I packed it with motorcycle chain and 1095 powder, welded it, pressed it, and used a diamond wheel to cut the welded ends of the canister off. After that, I did a horizontal cut, slid a chisel in, and the whole canister just pried right off the billet inside.

As you can see, there is no sign whatever of the billet welding to the canister.

Have Fun Forging!

 

[zzyzzogeton]

How long does it take aerosol KILZ to dry compared to White Out?

 

[Sonnydaze]

That would be helpful news for "Forged in Fire" competitors... They seem to use it a lot, and often they don't let it dry first, before dumping in the steel. It seems that the white-out doesn't work well under those circumstances.

 

[Larrin]

This thread may be better for the Shop Talk section.

 

[eveled]

Thanks for sharing the knowledge. Great job.

 

[bdmicarta]

That would be helpful news for "Forged in Fire" competitors... They seem to use it a lot, and often they don't let it dry first

I've always wondered why they don't take advantage of some of the nearby heat sources to reduce the drying time. However I did see someone discover that whiteout burns pretty well.

 

[DevinT]

It’s even better to just leave the can on.

Hoss

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Yep, forget the white out, leave the can on, and reduce the billet to a flat bar. By then the canister on the sides is only a few hundreds of an inch thick and will hog off in a few minutes or less.

 

[Tom Lewis]

Hoss and Stacy are right. LEAVE THE CAN ON. By the time everything is forged out and ground out the can will be gone. Also there is carbon migration that goes into the can. There is no reason try to take the can off. It's just something some "Expert" said to do and others just blindly followed along.

This is cannister Damascus with chain saw chain.

 

[mjranum]

How long does it take aerosol KILZ to dry compared to White Out?

White Out dries in 20-30 seconds, spray paint in a minute or two.
The spray gives better coverage.

 

[mjranum]

Yep, forget the white out, leave the can on, and reduce the billet to a flat bar. By then the canister on the sides is only a few hundreds of an inch thick and will hog off in a few minutes or less.

True, but why bother? The can I was using was a 2" x 2" square tube, which I compressed down to a 2" x 3/8" mooshpad. Then, I just cut the edges and peeled it off. If you prefer to grind things off, by all means, be my guest! I will say, though, that diamond-wheeling and peeling the can took a minute or so. I'm not keeping score on the noise and dust.

 

[mjranum]

By the time everything is forged out and ground out the can will be gone. Also there is carbon migration that goes into the can. There is no reason try to take the can off.

I suppose the amount of carbon you lose in migration is negligible.

Most of the time when I am making a billet of cannister something, it's with the intent of drawing it out, grinding one surface, cutting it in half, and welding it on either side of a chunk of 1095 or W2. I'm going to have to surface grind it, true, but it suits me fine to not have to worry about bits of mild steel appearing in awkward places.

That's the beauty of knife-making: you get to try things and see what works for you. And there's no need to follow the advice of experts who say "leave the can on!" or "take the can off!" - do what works for you and good fortune. What works for me is to get the can off earlier in the process. I usually draw the bar out after I have unwrapped it, and I like being able to check for crumbles or whatever. I also like to experiment. And, if I can think of a way that other knifemakers can use something that is easier and cheaper than White Out, why not tell them? The main thing is experiment and report your results.

 

[JTknives]

Just line the can with used stainless foil and be done with it.

 

[mjranum]

Just line the can with used stainless foil and be done with it.

Sure. That's a good way to boost the economy, too. What's it, about 200 times more expensive than a spritz of spray paint?

 

[Aidenag]

We already encounter all sorts of toxic crap making knives, adding spray can Kilz, and then burning it, is not something i want to add to the already long list of nasty junk we breath in.

 

[A.McPherson]

Sure. That's a good way to boost the economy, too. What's it, about 200 times more expensive than a spritz of spray paint?

As he said "used stainless foil" as in something that is going to be thrown away anyways. Already used once for HT, therefore free, since it's already served it's it's purpose.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I tried using stainless HT foil once but it ended up welding to the billet. I think the issue is that the foil isn't rated for welding temps.

 

[JTknives]

I tried using stainless HT foil once but it ended up welding to the billet. I think the issue is that the foil isn't rated for welding temps.

What foil did you try the 321 or the 309?

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I can't say for sure, because it was a while back, but I usually have 309 because it is higher temp. At welding heat plus the pressure, 2250°F (309) foil would not be enough to keep it from welding to the billet and the canister.

Have you had better results? Also, you mentioned using used foil. My used foil wouldn't bend sufficiently to be able to fold up to line a canister. It gets hardened quite a bit from the HT.

When I did it I used new foil. I cut the foil in a cross shape so it would fold up into a box. I folded the foil up on a block of wood the size of the canister. The "box" slid down inside the canister and the extended flap was folded over to covered the top when the top was put on and welded. It fit the canister neatly.

Maybe I should try it again. At the worst, it would show a shiny stripe so you know that all the canister is gone.

I am sure the white spray paint would work fine, I was just saying it is just as easy to leave the canister on until the billet is drawn out to about 90% of the desired thickness. You can even grind off only one side and fold the billet if doing folds. As long as the skin is on it is protecting the billet from scale, decarb, and getting scale hammered into the bikket.

 

[Randydb]

That's the beauty of knife-making: you get to try things and see what works for you. And there's no need to follow the advice of experts who say "leave the can on!" or "take the can off!" - do what works for you and good fortune. What works for me is to get the can off earlier in the process. I usually draw the bar out after I have unwrapped it, and I like being able to check for crumbles or whatever. I also like to experiment. And, if I can think of a way that other knifemakers can use something that is easier and cheaper than White Out, why not tell them? The main thing is experiment and report your results.

These other guys are doing the same thing as you here...offering ideas that people can use or disregard as they want. I think it's great having a bunch of different successful ideas in one thread as i read it. They aren't putting your idea down, they are offering alternatives ways of doing things.