Ladder pattern Damascus?

David Loukides

David Loukides

Joined
Mar 17, 2006
Messages
1,363
Hi Guy's,
I am making a ladder pattern in Damascus without a press.
I am planning on a Billet 3/8" thick and forged grooves 1/8" deep on each side.
1/2" spaces on each side.
After pattern is made I plan to forge the billet to 1/4 +" thick.
Is there any thing I should do differently?????
Many Thank's
Dave
 
You might get better results if you grind in the grooves with an angle/die grinder or similar setup. Use a fairly thin 3-4" wheel.
 
Hi Stacy,
I like the Idea and since my billet will be long enough to make 2 blades one will be done with a grinding wheel.
I will put up pictures of how they turn out.
Are the depths and spaces adequate?
Dave
 
David,

Although there are many different ways of making any pattern, the two basic types of ladder damascus are:

1) to forge in the grooves, either with a set of dies or by some other means, then to grind the billet flat, and stock remove the blade,

and,

2)to grind in the grooves, as Stacy says, usually with a thin wheel, say 1/8th", then forge the blade to shape.

The ladder pattern will have characteristic differences depending on which primary method is chosen.

For hard core forge-to-shape fans, a variation of #2 is to forge a pre-form of the blade with bevels. This is done thicker, narrower, and shorter than the finished blade, then grind in the grooves, then forge to shape. The exact thicknesses, grinding depths, and forging are critical, but the finished pattern is quite nice...

here's an old one with a pre-form, ground in grooves, and forged to shape after, (the pre-form was about 5/16th at the spine, 3/16ths at the edge, grooves about 1/16 inch deep, 1/8th apart, with a 1/8th cut-off wheel. The form was about 2/3rds as wide as the finished blade, and about an inch shorter. there was a ricasso in the pre-form, grooved like the blade.)

file-66.jpg


In any case, the key is: forge then grind, or grind then forge.

Maybe someone will add photos of a blade with forged in grooves and ground to shape?

John
 
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I don't know that I've ever seen a knife from John White that WASN'T absolutely beautiful. Thanks for sharing, John.

--nathan
 
If you look at Nick Wheeler's thread showcasing a recent ladder pattern integral, that's a nice example of die pressed pattern.
Nice blade, John! Thanks as well for the details.
 
Hi Guy's,
This morning I ground the 2 ladder pattern blades prior to heat treatment. I than gave a light etch. I do not have pic's yet but will later.
The forged !/8" groves gave a real light pattern. Mainly the blade looked like a random pattern but the ladder was there.
The ground groves showed a proper ladder pattern.
I was wondering why this happen?
Thank's
Dave
 
I have only ground my groves in. I snapped a pic of the billet of the last one. It's about 9/16 thick and the groves are about 1/3 through.
524B1F50-89CF-4412-A936-74EA9706A680-283-000001686E2F456E_zpsee633c78.jpg
it's about 320 layers and this is what it looks finished
657F1373-82A6-4439-94AA-445E42442134-192-00000072C40B956A_zpse1189e6a.jpg
did you get pics of the grooves? It would be cool to have a reference of the way the pattern comes out compared to the billets.

Cody
 
I hesitate to say much, since most of my Damascus is in a twist pattern rather than a ladder, but in the ladder patterns that I have made I have found that you need to forge pretty close to the shape you want.
If you leave the forged blade oversize and grind a lot off the sides, you can remove the ladder pattern and end up with a random pattern.
 
David,

When you PRESS in the grooves, or MILL them in, you must GRIND OFF the grooves and stock remove the blade. If you forge down the pressed in grooves, or forge out the blade, you're re-flattening the layers, and get the faintly laddered random you describe.

PRESS then GRIND, or GRIND then Forge.

John
 
Thanks for the mention Salem :)

Dave, this one was pressed in. The billet was forged down to 3/8" thickness (not the bolster area) and then forged to the profile I wanted. Then the pattern was pressed in. The high spots were ground off with a big angle grinder. :)

[video=youtube;Btj6zakdaWw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btj6zakdaWw[/video]
 
Thank You Nick,
Next trial run I will make one with the forged in grooves on the bevels, then regrind the shape. I will have to make a angle block to level the blade on the Little Giant. Putting the grooves in with a 1/8" rod was fun.
I will also make another with the ground in grooves on the bevels. and finial forge to shape.
Right now I need to start finishing up some blades I have on the bench. Probably around 40 pieces to work on.
Thanks for the info Guy's
Sincerely,
Dave
 
This is the first one to show a ladder pattern.
It is 159 layers of 1084 and 15n20.
The pattern is ground in with a disk grinder. I will try to find a more accurate way of putting the pattern in.
Forging to shape can really distort the pattern on the point.
I will try a second one with forging the grooves in and grinding clean later.
Thank You all who had Helped out.
Sincerely,
Dave

standard.jpg
 
Many thanks to the various Knife Makers and suppliers that have helped out on this project.
This is the first Ladder pattern I have made. I will be working on refining the pattern next knife.
Extra Thanks to Nick Wheeler for Making a Video on finishing Koa wood.
Spec's,
159 layers of 1084 and 15n20
10 &3/8" Tip to Guard
15 & 7/8" Overall length


standard.jpg


standard.jpg


Thanks for Looking,
Comments Welcome
Dave
 
Also David, more layers will equal better definition on the ladders. I usually go 300 layers or higher for ladder patterns. I grind in the grooves then forge. As John stated forging a pre form before laddering will help with losing ladders near the tip.
Brion
 
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