Large (9"+) Blades vs Saw vs Axe

HandofCod

HandofCod

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Feb 27, 2010
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I'm getting addicted to collecting knives so I'll preface this topic with a disclaimer that I'm not intending this to poke fun at people who buy large Busse blades etc. Maybe this thread should be titled "Convince me I need a large blade" but then I'd attract the wrong posters.

In terms of wilderness and outdoors use, why would you use a large, heavy 9 or 10 inch blade? (I'm not talking about jungle use - I can definitely see how a machete would be paramount to mobility there).

This discussion has been playing out in my head for a while now as I was looking around for something to compliment my Recon Scout and F1. I wanted something really cool like a Trail Master, or a Junglas or a even a Bushwacker Mistress. I stopped in my tracks though when I realised all my gear was really adding up in weight. A large blade would mean adding nearly another kilo of weight (25-30oz) that would be bulky too.

So I looked around for alternatives - the sawvivor, kershaw folding saw, the US Saber Cut hand saw, all cheap as dirt and mostly a fraction of the weight. They'd be safer to use too I think when you are tired after a day of hiking.

Don't get me wrong I think those $500 Busse blades are beautiful, and the cheaper (but still considerably expensive, comparitively) ones like the Trail Master are great too. But adding it all up in my head I can't see the upside of taking a large heavy blade that costs eight times as much and weights four times as much and could lead to nasty injury compared to a saw. I posted a similar question on another thread comparing Busse chopping capabilities on a 4x4 and really the only answer I got was that a NMFBM would be quicker at chopping through a tree than a saw. To which I say - yeah that's five minutes saved but you've still got to cart that thing around all day! From my very limited experience I can say that a longer blade would allow batoning wood in thicker diameters. But I can't see myself hacking down trees with 14" diameters for that really to be a problem.

So to all those with more experience in the outdoors than me (which is practically everyone) - can you help me understand?

I haven't mentioned axes so if you are a fan please let me know.
 
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This has been done to death...100% personal preference.

I prefer a decent sized knife, I barely notice my $30 khukuri I got from Nepal in 2004 and its obliterated iron bark with no ill effects...you dont need a busse to get out there, but busse make very good blades you can use for more then one task which a saw cannot do.
 
My apologies for the repetition I've only been on these forums a couple of months.

What sized trees would you fell with the khukuri?
 
I don't mean to thread jack but has anyone used wedges instead of using a large knife to split wood? It seems to be that a wedge might work well without weighing as much as a large knife. Just a thought. I myself like to carry a large knife or short machete and a folding saw. Or sometimes a light axe or tomahawk.
 
HandofCod said:
My apologies for the repetition I've only been on these forums a couple of months.

What sized trees would you fell with the khukuri?
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i dont need to, enough fallen tree's that I can just split and chop some up...usually around 3 - 4" around, so not large and use the masses of kindling laying around.

I have yet to encounter a time when I needed to knock a tree down for a fire.
 
I agree with Scott and Robert, it's your choice and each is for different jobs. I find a lot of the "battoning post" interesting when someone brags that their chopper is a do-it-all tool for camping and show pics battoning through a piece of wood with a smooth saw cut edge. I have a few large blades and carry them because I enjoy them. All of my packs have a folding saw in them and I would not backpack without one. If you are feeling the "itch" for a chopper you may as well get one and decide for yourself if it's worth the extra weight.
 
Grab a video or two from Ron Hood...he's a master with the big knife, but even he'll tell you it's not the tool, it's the practice skill. He also carries around a SAK with locking blade (Rucksack?).

Your Recon Scout is already a big blade and if you were to buy the Trailmaster or other larger-sized fixed blade, I would dump the Recon Scout...they're too close in size to justify the need (in my opinion...which is what Robert B. mentioned...it's all 100% personal choice).

I was out yesterday, trimming up a few downed trees to get some 6-7 foot lengths of branches about 2" in diameter. I was using a 1/4" golok and it made short work of all the surrounding vines and thorns, plus trimming off all the smaller branches. However, my folding saw really came in handy when trying to cut the branches while balancing on a fallen tree that was sitting up about 10 feet off the ground. I think a folding saw (Kershaw/Bahco or Silky) would be a great round-out to what you have.

I like a good 4 inch-sized fixed blade belt knife...something that is always with me; a decent chopper (large blade or axe) in the pack with the option of strapping on; and finally a handy folding saw.

Of course, I almost always have a folder and/or SAK/multitool with me, depending on the activities.

About the only thing a larger knife will do for you is increase your leverage by two inches, add a little extra weight for chopping which leads to a couple less swings. If you already carry a 7.5" blade, adding another with just a couple more inches won't be much of a performance pay-off. I really think a folding saw would round out your kit quite well. My son uses my saws daily...now I need to get him his own ;)

ROCK6
 
I had my opinions sorted out, until I decided to try them all out. It didn't fall into place as I thought. I was surprised in a great and fun way.
 
If you really like your Recon Scout, stick with that and get a little folding saw or sawvivor. No need to choose one over another. A 6" portable saw adds mabye 5 oz and worth every gram of it.
 
It's a personal thing.

Depends on what you are doing and how you like to work.

The only real 10" blade I use is my Bushwhacker Mistress. Part of the reason is that it makes up part of my lightest tool set:
100_0185.jpg

You see, it's an excellent slicer (mine came shaving sharp, full convex from the factory, others' have not), and I use it for knife chores. The 'Hawk is the chopper. Despite the size of the tools, this combo is quite light.

If you want to include kukri, then I have one of those combos as well, although it's considerably heavier:
100_0187.jpg

That kukri is 20" long, and has about 14.5" of blade. It does everything from chopping to slicing to clearing brush and grass. The knife is for small work.

Then for more of a hunting setup,
100_0188.jpg

Although not quite 9", the leuku makes a great knife for butchering large game and doing some light brush clearing. The Leuku is .110" thick and very light, yet still considered by most a "large knife".
 
Saws can make some pretty bad wounds also, though probably not as bad as an earant chop could be, but the main reason I wouldn't trust one as my only wood cutting tool is because they bend easily, break occasionaly, and are pretty near impossible to sharpen in the field. Axe and hatchet handles can break and often loosen. Bussekins have been tested close to being unbreakable as you can carry. Some others may be practically as good, but I am not sure who they would be.
 
fishiker said:
I agree with Scott and Robert, it's your choice and each is for different jobs. I find a lot of the "battoning post" interesting when someone brags that their chopper is a do-it-all tool for camping and show pics battoning through a piece of wood with a smooth saw cut edge. I have a few large blades and carry them because I enjoy them. All of my packs have a folding saw in them and I would not backpack without one. If you are feeling the "itch" for a chopper you may as well get one and decide for yourself if it's worth the extra weight.
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I have to agree that a saw and chopper, be it an axe or large knife, is a potent combo for processing wood. Somebody also mentioned wedges, which are a work around with a saw and knife that is too small to baton through the piece, however that is a bit of a hassel. If the weight of the knife is important, then its probably a hassel worth endeavoring for.

Nesmuk really had it right when he advocated multiple tools to accomplish multiple tasks. I don't think you have to take his recommendation of the trio as gospel. You can mix and match for what is effective for the environment you are in, materials you will work with and need for your tools. Lets also face it that Nesmuk and Kephart lived in a different age where they didn't have 600 g hammocks but instead hacked apart a couple of living trees every time they bedded down for a night.

Personally, I like the idea of a big chopper knife but have found that I do not like to carry them nor are they (for me) as versatile as people claim. I find them clumsy at detail chores, clumsy at chopping, a pain in the hip to carry. You can take down a good size tree with a large knife, but its not a great way to do so. I do find that large knives truly they excel at batoning wood. As quoted above, they tend to baton straight cut wood better, but you can chop and baton with a lot more effort than having a saw and still get the job done. Again, there are always work arounds with a general tool compared to multiple specialized tool. The only difference is efficiency of task versus weight saved or expense paid out to procure several tools versus one.

When I'm at camp and processing wood for the nights fire, I truly do prefer to baton split than to chop with an axe. It might be my axemanship isn't the best and even if it takes more time to do by batoning, I find the cuts are more precise and sized the way I want them. Really, fire prep is one of those things that I slow down for rather than try to speed up. Firecraft is one of the highlight activities for me when I'm in the outdoors. It is special to the point of almost spirtual and I want to enjoy every moment of it rather than speed through it as though I were washing dishes. I even often start my fire with a bowdrill, partly for training, but partly for the enjoyment of the slow down associated with fire making. For me, "the ends is the means" when it comes to this activity.

I think a good folding saw and a midsize blade (6-7") is the right size for me. This is mainly because it works for the size of wood I process and contributes to my admittedly limited wood consumption for a nights enjoyment. Often times the saw on my RuckSack is suitable, but when I need bigger and badder I really like my 24" Swedish take down saw (trailblazer) and I'm not opposed to taking an axe along as well.

Now the desert guys really seem to like the mid- to large knives for poking things that poke back. I guess in the end, I'd recommend getting a large knife and trying it out. I'd strongly try to disuay you from going right to a $500 infi badass blade. Go for a $60 BK-9 and try that out for a few outings and see if a large blade is really what you like. If you do like it then consider what it is you like, what improvements you see for it and invest accordingly. As for myself, if I had a Busse battlemistress, I can tell you for a fact that it would sit on the shelf along with my RD-9 and scrapyard SOD.
 
I've compared a bahco folding saw to a my short chopper (busse ash1) which has a heavy 6.5" blade and in general the saw took (for me at least) about half the time to cut a 4" diameter branch compared to the ash1. This was Australian hard wood too. Also noted was that the effort was much less as well.

I've didn't do a direct comparison to a saw but I have chopped with a 12" machete and a similar sized khukuri on a similar sized branch and I still find the saw to be quicker. (The machete and the khurkuri are still fun to chop with though)

So for less effort and less time the saw was definitely worth having.

Now I know that a larger chopper would do considerably better than my short blade on the same sized branch but I believe that to be able to chop as quick as the saw you would still need a lot more effort. For me at least I found the saw to me much more energy efficient.

Also the saw weights only about 6oz. How heavy would a larger chopper have to weigh to be comparable in cutting power? Think about it.

Someone has made some interesting comments about saws being able to give you a nasty wound, can break, and are difficult to sharpen. These could happen but used properly a saw can be very safe. I personally feel that they are a safer alternative especially when your tired. A saw wound may or may not be bad but a deep cut from a missed chopping swing doesn't sound any better to me.

A saw is indeed difficult to sharpen and I wouldn't even bother trying to sharpen it while in the field. You can carry a spare saw blade which weights next to nothing or get a high quality saw. The Bahco I use is both strong and hard wearing. I've used my one for a few months now and the original saw blade still feels sharp. Even after I've sawed lots of hard wood too.

I've been able to saw through a 6" hardwood log without any problems. I would hate to think how long it would take to chop through it with a larger chopping knife. (This Australian hardwood makes pine look like balsa wood. No joke this stuff is very hard and heavy!)

Other peoples opinion may vary and your mileage may differ but when I go out in the wood for an extended period I take my medium blade and my folding saw. It works for me.
 
All of this is very much personal opinion and experience.

One of the issues with this type of discussion seems to be that "large blade" is too general a term. So is saw.


I'm going to start with saws. You have a few types-

Frame saws, including the bow saw and sven-saw types. They cut. That's about all there is to say about them. The main advantages are that you can build a frame for the saw out in the boonies, and that you can flat pack a very large saw. If you are homesteading, or stocking a cache for a homesteading or long term self-supporting camp, then cool.

(I'm ignoring regular woodworking saws right now)

Pocket wire and 'chain' saws. Nothing I can say. Don't like them. They are slow and twitchy, but do actually work if you get a decent one. If you don't have anything else....


Pruning saws. The sierra saw is a modified pruning saw. These come in folding and non folding varieties. I have some 14 inch non-folding ones that are really nice, and a couple folding ones in the 7-8 inch range. These saws work on a double push-pull cut very well and really make quick work of sectioning wood.
Wouldn't be my first choice for planking, or framing, but I could do it. For firewood, you can't beat it. I prefer the corona professional folding 7 inch saw, though we have the wood handled 8 inch corona folding saw, as well.
I take the corona over anything else because I can get blades more easily. The silky cuts a bit faster, but not enough- to me- to justify the issues.
I have nothing positive to say about the discount sporting goods store versions. So I'll just say that if you are trying to spend under $24, go corona.
(I want to try the 14 inch folding corona. I like the 13 and 14 inch non folding ones just fine, not sure how I'll like the handle on the folding variety)


Saws will, simply, make more trimmed length of wood, faster, than anything else in the western forests using deadfall in the 2 to 8 inch range. Especially when trying to section off dead manzanita from a living tree (common out here on private land)


Okay, saws are easy- there's undoubtedly a master of the pocket wire saw out there who can make it work nearly as fast as a 14 inch pruning saw, as well as people who think the premium on the silky saw is worth paying for the seconds per inch of time savings.

One thing I really don't like doing with a saw is felling anything over about 4-5 inches in diameter. This is where large knives and axes come in.

I'm not dismissing axes, but I'm not going to state any opinions on them- I use several kinds and they all work in varying degrees for varying tasks.

Knives get complicated, fast. The difference between the in between 6-7 inch blade and the 9 inch blades is huge. Then there's the general type differences:

what we call choppers - generally 3/16 to 3/8 (!?!?!) thick blades, over 7 inches in blade length

Leuku style blades- 1/8 to 3/16 and 7-10 inches.

Camp knives, which van very all over the place.

Machetes- often 5/65 to 1/8, with blade lengths that I've used from 12 to 18 inches, and larger.

I prefer a full convex grind on a chopper- I think you get better performance in chopping, splitting, batoning, and have the possibility of getting really decent performance in slicing. The weight penalty can be high, but I think they are overdone often. you really should be able to pull up decently under 2 pounds with a good 10-11 inch blade.
A well designed blade with a spearpoint or good clip can do wonderful things in defensive roles, as well.

Handle geometry matters- I can't, personally, deal long term with the overly contoured handles that restrict your comfortable holds to one or two.

And blade geometry is a huge factor- more important than the mass of the blade, by far. More important than length in any given 2-3 inch range. (7-9, 8-11, etc) IMO

I really like the leuku design best as a do it all large knife. They chop, they slice, you can choke up on the broad blade and to very fine cutting. They work very well in an icepick grip, too.

The leuku and variants seem to be the best performance for the weight, too.

That being said, my preference for making a dedicated chopper is a full convex spearpoint in the 9-11 inch range.
 
The Recon Scout is a pretty effective chopper for its size.I also agree that a good folding saw would be quite handy as well.Have you considered adding a machete to your arsenol? For clearing lighter brush and limbs it's hard to beat.ESEE makes a good one called the Light Machete,which would provide extra reach and does'nt weigh too much.Condor,Ontario,Martindale,Cold Steel,and Tramontina make some good ones as well.
 
Personaly as far a s saws go. I carry a Pocket Chainsaw. If I just need to cut 1 or 2 poles I'll use it as is. If I am going to do any considerable work with it, then I fit it up into a frame saw in the field. I like it due to its being very compact to carry yet exceptionaly capable. Once made up into a frame saw I have used it to cut logs 12" and more in diameter. I take the pocket chainsaw even if I take a chopper.

As to choppers. I spent several years living in the woods and my M-43 Kukri was my primary tool. So it remains my favorite chopper. I can do far more with it than just chop. It makes a great drawknife and skiv as well. I've even used it as a scythe for cutting grasses for bedding. It served me very well when building trappers cabins. The first cabin was done completely with the kukri. Chopping all those logs to length was a LOT of work. When it became neccessary to build a different cabin I picked up a Swede Saw for the crosscutting. Kukri worked well for cutting wedges for splitting and trimming up batons as well.

I've gotten in the groove of generaly carrying a small blade (4-5"), A large blade usualy my M-43 kukri, but occasionaly others. and the pocket chainsaw. This selection gives me tools for a wide variety of tasks. It also allows me to process larger materials than most folding saws can handle.
 
i like big blades because they're more fun to use than a saw or an axe...and to scare off the sheeple :eek::D
 
This topic is one of the topics that always has my interest. I love to hear what people have to say on the subject.

My own preference, is I like a large blade to have fun. A big knife may not be as fast or efficient as a saw. May not split or fell as fast as an axe. However, I find it more fun to use a large blade over all others. I also use a 9" saw a lot when I am gathering wood for the fire, but only to bring it to camp. After I get the sections of wood to where I am staying, that is the last use the saw will see. The rest is done with a large knife, as it is considerably more fun for me.
 
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