Last stone grit vs strop starting grit

[Gil P.]

Do you change which strop grip you start on depending on which stone grit you end on?

Eta
My current ending stone is a Venev OCB 2000. I start with DMT diapaste at 6 micron, then 3, then 1 micron. Am I wasting time starting eight the 6 micron from such a fine stone?

 

[DeadboxHero]

Do you change which strop grip you start on depending on which stone grit you end on?

Eta
My current ending stone is a Venev OCB 2000. I start with DMT diapaste at 6 micron, then 3, then 1 micron. Am I wasting time starting eight the 6 micron from such a fine stone?

Test for yourself and see what works.

I just skip all the lower grit compounds and just run a 1um.

 

[Gil P.]

Test for yourself and see what works.

I just skip all the lower grit compounds and just run a 1um.

I'll do that. Do you use the DMT diapaste?
I can whittle hair with my edges but I still feel I can get them sharper. What's a good measure of sharpness?

Thanks for your videos by the way. They are helpful.

 

[DeadboxHero]

I'll do that. Do you use the DMT diapaste?
I can whittle hair with my edges but I still feel I can get them sharper. What's a good measure of sharpness?

Thanks for your videos by the way. They are helpful.

Hair whittling is a nice one.

Paper is often overlooked since it's easy to cut but there are some subtleties thay can be used to quickly check an edge, should be able to do a change in direction (wavey cut) without hang ups. Check the paper fibers, feel the resistance or lack of in the cut and also there are subtleties in the sound of the cut.

I like to see if the edge can "tree top" hair off my arm without touching skin and also if it can make a clean slice in a paper towel without tearing or sliding.

If it does all those I'm personally happy with the edge.

I'm sure other folks can chime in an about what they like as well.

 

[Gil P.]

Hair whittling is a nice one.

Paper is often overlooked since it's easy to cut but there are some subtleties thay can be used to quickly check an edge, should be able to do a change in direction (wavey cut) without hang ups. Check the paper fibers, feel the resistance or lack of in the cut and also there are subtleties in the sound of the cut.

I like to see if the edge can "tree top" hair off my arm without touching skin and also if it can make a clean slice in a paper towel without tearing or sliding.

If it does all those I'm personally happy with the edge.

I'm sure other folks can chime in an about what they like as well.

I havent been able to tree top hair on my arms or legs. The blade might catch a hair or two and grab/cut it, but not consistently.

I'll keep at it and see how I can improve my edge. Tree topping hair would make me happy with my edge.

I just got a new Venev 1200/2000 8"x3" stone. The 1200 doesn't load as much as my old one. I wasn't aware they changed how they make that grit stone.

 

[wade7575]

I havent been able to tree top hair on my arms or legs. The blade might catch a hair or two and grab/cut it, but not consistently.

I'll keep at it and see how I can improve my edge. Tree topping hair would make me happy with my edge.

I just got a new Venev 1200/2000 8"x3" stone. The 1200 doesn't load as much as my old one. I wasn't aware they changed how they make that grit stone.

They change the resin on the Venev 400 800 and 1200 grit stones so they aren't as abrasive and don't scratch the edge up that much at all.

If you want a really good finishing stone look at a Suehiro G8 stone that is what I use after the Venev 1200 grit and there's really no need to strop after that stones unless your going for a true mirror polish or for extra sharpness,if you look on ebay you can get the Sue G8 stone at a very good price right Japan if you watch the different vendor's.

 

[Gil P.]

They change the resin on the Venev 400 800 and 1200 grit stones so they aren't as abrasive and don't scratch the edge up that much at all.

If you want a really good finishing stone look at a Suehiro G8 stone that is what I use after the Venev 1200 grit and there's really no need to strop after that stones unless your going for a true mirror polish or for extra sharpness,if you look on ebay you can get the Sue G8 stone at a very good price right Japan if you watch the different vendor's.

Can it effectively sharpen high carbide steels?

It would probably polish the bevel better than my Venev 2000, but the 2000 is a 1 micron stone. Wouldn't that be finer than the G8?

 

[Mr.Wizard]

It would probably polish the bevel better than my Venev 2000, but the 2000 is a 1 micron stone. Wouldn't that be finer than the G8?

According to Gritomatic the Venev is F2000 which has very similar specifications to JIS #8000, though I don't know if the G8 actually follows JIS. See https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/sv30-on-shapton-glass-results.1781971/page-2#post-20424738 for a surprising example.

Abrasive performance (material removal rate and resulting surface roughness) is not dependent on median grain size or even full particle size distribution alone however. It is entirely possible for two products with roughly equivalent grain sizes to produce very different results. For example, and bringing this back to the context of this thread, diamond compound on leather typically produces a much higher polish than a vitrified stone (alumina or silicon carbide) of similar grain size.

 

[wade7575]

Can it effectively sharpen high carbide steels?

It would probably polish the bevel better than my Venev 2000, but the 2000 is a 1 micron stone. Wouldn't that be finer than the G8?

I also have a Venev 2000 grit stone and I still prefer the Suehiro G8 stone which is an 8K stone,the G8 stone is made from silicon carbide but it finish's just like an aluminum oxide stone so it will cut high carbide steels good.

I don't worry about steels that have vanadium carbides in them or any other carbides for that matter if I'm using water stones on them so long as I use diamonds or CBN stones first and move onto water stones,if you go up to the Venev 400 or even just the 800 you can still move to a finer grit water stone because your not removing much metal at this point so you don't need to worry if your cutting the carbides,when you need to cut the carbides is with your lower grit stones.

Maybe HeavyHanded can chime in on this as well because he also really likes the G8 stone,all I can say about the G8 stone it's the best 8K stone I have ever used and it does polish your edge for sure but it also still leave's a good amount of bite to your edge as well unlike others stones that polish.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I also have a Venev 2000 grit stone and I still prefer the Suehiro G8 stone which is an 8K stone,the G8 stone is made from silicon carbide but it finish's just like an aluminum oxide stone so it will cut high carbide steels good.

I don't worry about steels that have vanadium carbides in them or any other carbides for that matter if I'm using water stones on them so long as I use diamonds or CBN stones first and move onto water stones,if you go up to the Venev 400 or even just the 800 you can still move to a finer grit water stone because your not removing much metal at this point so you don't need to worry if your cutting the carbides,when you need to cut the carbides is with your lower grit stones.

Maybe HeavyHanded can chime in on this as well because he also really likes the G8 stone,all I can say about the G8 stone it's the best 8K stone I have ever used and it does polish your edge for sure but it also still leave's a good amount of bite to your edge as well unlike others stones that polish.

The G8 does a great job on high carbide steels up to that 3-4%Vanadium. Even with that it does a better job than any of my AlumOx finishing stones on those steels, and is comparable or better on low carbide stainless and carbon steel.

For the high VC steels you need diamond or CbN, lapping film is a good option, as is the finer diamond plates, diamond strops etc. I often use a diamond jointer stone - resin bonded 10 micron abrasive but leaves a 6-8k finish.

I microbevel just about everything these days, only on woodworking tools do I use a "full" progression, usually finishing with chromium oxide at .5 micron IIRC. These reliably treetop my sparse armhair. I aim to use the least steps possible at all times.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I often use a diamond jointer stone - resin bonded 10 micron abrasive but leaves a 6-8k finish.

Have you written about that before?

 

[David Martin]

wade7575 , "when you need to cut the carbide is with the lower grit stone".
Perhaps something was lost in translation. Because during the discussions here it has been put forth that the vanadium carbides are not cut ( i.e. shaped) until xx fine diamond plate. At 1500 grit. The more coarse grits merely by pass the vanadium cardides and don't shape them. Or they tear them out. Good luck, DM

 

[HeavyHanded]

Have you written about that before?

Yeah, a bunch of times. They're currently unavailable, but I've used them for years.

In use more like a strop or film, they can't do much work but clean up an edge very quickly and microbevel. For a wider single plane edge they're still effective but slow. Compare favorably to other resin diamond stones I've tested, equal or better than most.

 

[Gil P.]

The G8 does a great job on high carbide steels up to that 3-4%Vanadium. Even with that it does a better job than any of my AlumOx finishing stones on those steels, and is comparable or better on low carbide stainless and carbon steel.

For the high VC steels you need diamond or CbN, lapping film is a good option, as is the finer diamond plates, diamond strops etc. I often use a diamond jointer stone - resin bonded 10 micron abrasive but leaves a 6-8k finish.

I microbevel just about everything these days, only on woodworking tools do I use a "full" progression, usually finishing with chromium oxide at .5 micron IIRC. These reliably treetop my sparse armhair. I aim to use the least steps possible at all times.

For now I'll stick with the Venev stones. I like playing with the high carbide steels and the Venev stones seems to be doing a good job.

I have a question about the ability of a knife to tree top hair so I know what to expect. Are you saying the blade can cut right through your arm hair without disturbing them very much? My edges get caught on the hairs before cutting them. It's like the blade catches the hair, pulls on it, and cuts it. I cant remove very many hairs with one pass though.

 

[HeavyHanded]

For now I'll stick with the Venev stones. I like playing with the high carbide steels and the Venev stones seems to be doing a good job.

I have a question about the ability of a knife to tree top hair so I know what to expect. Are you saying the blade can cut right through your arm hair without disturbing them very much? My edges get caught on the hairs before cutting them. It's like the blade catches the hair, pulls on it, and cuts it. I cant remove very many hairs with one pass though.

My woodworking tools the hair just seems to pile up on the blade. My utility edges definitely catch, you can almost hear them popping. I don't sweat it if every single hair doesn't cut, more important the edge have some good tooth for longevity sake - two or three is a good indicator.

And... every person's arm hair etc is different, there's a big difference between my arm and leg hair. I look at it like physical training with a hearty rate monitor, once you have an idea of where you're performing for a given prep you don't really need it every time.

Most of the time I don't test except a quick pass through some thin paper.

 

[wade7575]

wade7575 , "when you need to cut the carbide is with the lower grit stone".
Perhaps something was lost in translation. Because during the discussions here it has been put forth that the vanadium carbides are not cut ( i.e. shaped) until xx fine diamond plate. At 1500 grit. The more coarse grits merely by pass the vanadium cardides and don't shape them. Or they tear them out. Good luck, DM

That's what I was trying to say that I like to use lower grit diamonds or CBN first then use the G8 stone as my finishing stone,when I said that the G8 stone would be good for stones that have a lot of carbide's I should have said but not vanadium carbides because I know better then that.

I like to use the G8 stone after I get the 800 or 1200 grit venev stone then use the G8 but by that time you are barely removing no metal at all and just refining the edge at that point.

 

[David Martin]

DM

 

[Gritomatic]

According to Gritomatic the Venev is F2000 which has very similar specifications to JIS #8000, though I don't know if the G8 actually follows JIS. See https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/sv30-on-shapton-glass-results.1781971/page-2#post-20424738 for a surprising example.

Abrasive performance (material removal rate and resulting surface roughness) is not dependent on median grain size or even full particle size distribution alone however. It is entirely possible for two products with roughly equivalent grain sizes to produce very different results.

I will make a stronger assertion. It is entirely possible for ONE product to produce very different results on the same steel. Venev OCB F2000 is a good example. It's full of spherical diamond agglomerate quasi-particles in the range 5-20 microns. Agglomerates consist of submicron diamond grains. Depending on multiple factors such as lapping quality, OCB F2000 can work very differently.

 

[ToddS]

I will make a stronger assertion. It is entirely possible for ONE product to produce very different results on the same steel. Venev OCB F2000 is a good example. It's full of spherical diamond agglomerate quasi-particles in the range 5-20 microns. Agglomerates consist of submicron diamond grains. Depending on multiple factors such as lapping quality, OCB F2000 can work very differently.

It makes sense that diamonds on the surface of one of those agglomerates would be better exposed to grind the metal, having a firmer backing than just being embedded in simple resin. Particularly considering this is how the 3M diamond lapping film with the diamonds contained in silica spheres seems to work.

 

[Diemaker]

What holds the agglomerate together? It also sounds like the scratch pattern would not be as uniform as a stone with the diamonds evenly dispersed in the resin.