Learning to forge: scrap steel or "good" steel?

B

bowdude

Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Messages
130
Hi all,

I'm slowly amassing stuff together to jump into forging. What do you hammerers recommend for learning on, scrap steel like leaf springs, or good steel? Reasons for your choice would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Larry
 
Whether steel working or wood working or leather working, I would always recommend practicing on scrap first. You'll learn a lot about your hammering abilities, heat treating, quenching, etc., and you can give away your first efforts to friends who are into primitive knives and they'll appreciate them ;) You can make some pretty good first knives out of leaf springs and files.
 
If every dollar comes with a drop of blood (ie. you are really strapped for cash),then start with a good scrap source. Leaf springs,coil springs,grandpaw's two man saw,etc. are steels that will work and you can have some idea of what they are.Just using any old piece of metal is self defeating,since you don't know what you are learning from it. If,however,you have a few dollars to learn with,purchase a good length of 5160 from Admiral or some other source (often sold in 21 foot sections),and use the same steel with known characteristics to learn on. You will acquire the skills needed and learn by observing how the metal works within KNOWN parameters.21 feet of 1.5" X .25" 5160 will make a lot of knives. The best thing is they will be good knives,or at least as good as you can make them. If you use junk metal,you will make junk knives,regardless of how good your abilities develop.Starting with known steel will give you something to build on. If a knife is a success (they all won't be) ,then you can give it to a friend. If it is a failure,you can put it in the scrap bin. If you are using junk steel all your effort will most likely end up in the scrap bin.Better to assume you will succeed than assume you will fail.
Remember that the cheapest thing on a forged knife is the steel.
Stacy
 
While I don't really forge steel much myself, regardless of which route you go maybe you could try some other projects first just to get the hang of moving metal with a hammer. Be creative. Hooks to hang stuff on, a poker for the fireplace, or whatever.

If every dollar comes with a drop of blood (ie. you are really strapped for cash),then start with a good scrap source. Leaf springs,coil springs,grandpaw's two man saw,
Click to expand...

If you have grandpaw's two man saw laying around, for the prices those suckers fetch on antique sales you'd probably be way better off selling it rather than cutting it up, and buying new steel. :)
 
bladsmth said:
Remember that the cheapest thing on a forged knife is the steel.
Stacy
Click to expand...


If you can't afford a few dollars (literally) for a nice piece of 1084 or something, just give up now.

If you're going to invest possibly hundred$ in labor, why not spring the $5 for quality material?
 
that being said, dont overlook the value of free metal. I started my first blades on railroad spikes i coudl pick up by the dozen for free from abandoned track near my home. Yeah, the steel isnt good enough for hardening and getting an edge on, but you'll learn alot about forging to shape from a less than idealy shapped billet.
 
Figures, both viewpoints make sense. I'm not strapped for cash, but naturally I would prefer not to spend a mountain to make a molehill.

That being said, maybe a mix of the 2 approaches would be good. Get some weird shaped steel for the forging/manipulating practice, and good steel for knife blades that are meant for use.

OK, since we're on a roll, how about a good recommendation for a forging steel for beginners, something that is forgiving of poor temperature control and easy to harden?
 
bowdude said:
OK, since we're on a roll, how about a good recommendation for a forging steel for beginners, something that is forgiving of poor temperature control and easy to harden?
Click to expand...

I like 1084 because it's a simple carbon steel that's super easy to handle. I think Stacey recommended 5160 above, others really like O1. There are lot's of choices, but I prefer to keep it simple unless need dictates otherwise.
 
1084 is the easiest to learn on.Being the eutectic ,it has the lowest temperature for forging and HT.At .84% carbon ,it produces an excellent blade.5160 is also cheap and easy to work,as it is fairly forgiving of HT errors.Mace, on these forums, sells good 1084 in 3' bars.I like the 1.5"X.25" size.3 bars will get you a lot of practice and 15 or more knives.
Info here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432684
Stacy
 
When learning to harden blades with a torch I forged and practiced on a mild steel blade until I figured I knew what I was doing. No matter how long you work steel you will still have learning waiting for you.
 
"One mans junk is another mans treasure" is still true. Many good things are discarded daily as junk, but if the truth be known "known steel" many would compete to get it because the elements making up that particular item are not found in a particular bar of steel that can be purchased by an individual. As far as "known steel", you can either have it tested if you have a good source for it or you can make knives from it and do your own testing as far as endurance is expected for the knife you are building. Either way it becomes known, at least to you and those who invest in what you are doing by putting your knives to work in the field. You will get feedback....!

Ramsey
 
I think we are talking about several different things here. For learning how to shape, be it forging or grinding, the type of steel is irrelevent and it is good reasoning to use scrap and waste as much of it as you can in order to get proficient at those operations. Heck even the guys who have done it for years will prefer to use mild steel or scrap when forging at a demo, particularly in sunlight. I would strongly encourage you to use mild steel for practice in shaping techniques because it will eliminate the urge to want to try to finish a knife out of it that could come back to haunt you in a serious way later. Also you will have no problem in throwing it on the scrap pile and starting over until you get it just the way you want.

Heat treating is another subject all together, and you can learn very little about properly heat treating a good steel by heating and cooling mild steel, or even worse a steel that you have no idea of the chemistry of. The new guy owes it to himself to have a predictable and repeatable material when learning something as infinitely complex as proper heat treating.

As has been indicated in seperate posts, I say use both for practice, just don't confuse which operations they can benefit you with.
 
Ive just started forging after a few years of stock removal. Im starting with good materials because when it comes down to it, steel is not that expensive. 35$ for 3 feet of 1" round steel is about 12 bucks a foot. Each foot can make at least two knives, so youre now at 6$ for steel for a knife. Unless its free, you cant really even get mild steel for much cheaper....

Thats my take, at least.
 
Forging is a never ending process when you really get into it and for me its the most enjoyable phase of making a knife. I prefer junk steel mainly because I get alittle more excited about making something that was something else before. After the fire in August of 05 all the new steel I had at the time looks like junk steel so I guess I'm a junk steel junky.
 
Making a knife from junk steel does not mean you have a junk knife !!!!!!!

This topic has been hashed out before so most of you know my thoughts about it:D

You can buy known steel at svrap yards and at your local machine shop or spring shop for scrap prices,and it will be new stock.Buying known steel from a supplier doesnt always mean you get what you ordered,People make mistakes,and once you have used it you cannot return it-Thus adding to your steel cost.I personally use 5160 that was bought as Scrap,of course it came from a spring factory as new cut off bars,but scrap none the less.Does this make my knives junk.....Only my customers can say,but I dont think so.

My suggestion is this: Buy steel how you want and were you want,but always be prepared to test it after heat treat to make sure it will work for you and your customer.If yu are into recycling then scrap steel is the way to go,Many many knives have been made from scrap steel and have serviced the owners well...

Just my 2 cents,
Bruce
 
Bruce Evans said:
You can buy known steel at scrap yards and at your local machine shop or spring shop for scrap prices,and it will be new stock.Buying known steel from a supplier doesnt always mean you get what you ordered ...
Click to expand...

This is true. When I speak of 'known steel', I don't care where it comes from as long as you know what it is. It is true that material that is ordered isn't always what they send, but usually it is.

To me, the idea of forging blades from mild steel 'to learn' forging is not optimum use of your assets. Carbon steel is pretty cheap and after you're done forging, you can 'learn' about heat treating too. Why make mild-steel knives at all in this situation? It's not going to save you money and it'll be useless to learn heat treating.
 
to practice forging with mild steel is good for guards,but sometimes isnt so good for blades....That is if you cant throw it out once you get it forged:D I had a student make 2 blades from mild steel,I litteraly had to piss him off and throw them over the hollow just to keep him from finishing them.Practicing on scrap springs will at least let you learn how to heat treat a spring once you get a blade forged the way you like it.

Dont get me wrong,any and all practice is good,just so long as you can scrap it if it is not usable material.

Bruce
 
Bruce Evans said:
Making a knife from junk steel does not mean you have a junk knife !!!!!!!

This topic has been hashed out before so most of you know my thoughts about it:D

You can buy known steel at svrap yards and at your local machine shop or spring shop for scrap prices,and it will be new stock.Buying known steel from a supplier doesnt always mean you get what you ordered,People make mistakes,and once you have used it you cannot return it-Thus adding to your steel cost.I personally use 5160 that was bought as Scrap,of course it came from a spring factory as new cut off bars,but scrap none the less.Does this make my knives junk.....Only my customers can say,but I dont think so.

My suggestion is this: Buy steel how you want and were you want,but always be prepared to test it after heat treat to make sure it will work for you and your customer.If yu are into recycling then scrap steel is the way to go,Many many knives have been made from scrap steel and have serviced the owners well...

Just my 2 cents,
Bruce
Click to expand...

I love what Bruce said. I have been picking up old files from flea markets for a while to practice on. Many of them can be bought for $.25-$1.00 and make excellent pieces for either practice or finished knives. While practicing and sharing some of my work, a co-worker was amazed at what I had done and wanted to buy one without holes or handle material.

This one is a Nickolson 12" file. The knife finished out at OAL 9" with the blade about 5". I soft back drawed the handle after plain water quench and then tempered in the oven at 375f for 1 hour. The blade came out with a nice straw color and takes and holds an edge pretty well. It's not high performance by any standard but for practice and for what it is, it is what it is. My buddy is happy with it because it WAS a Nickolson file and he plans to field dress a deer with it. I told him "good luck with that" but I want to know how it holds up.

I charged him $30. I can buy more files and belts and practice some more. Everybody's happy.

gvbfileknife1.jpg

gvbfileknife2.jpg

gvbfileknife3.jpg


I am also slowly working on forging down a huge British file into a hefty Tim Lively inspired camp knife. With files you can swing both ways; stock removal or forging. It's cheap, recycling, and makes a relatively good knife.

Thanks, Bruce, for the encouragement.:thumbup:
 
:D I like the way you left the "Flat Bastard" mark clearly visible on the knife, even when sheathed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top