Leather tanning/tarnishing the carbon steel?

mykulmorris

mykulmorris

Joined
Jul 8, 2007
Messages
1,690
Forgive me if this has been asked before but... There's been a couple times I've made nice knives (all high carbon steel) only to have them tarnish prematurely simply by resting in the sheath over a short period of time (sometimes a couple months, sometimes a few days). Is there something in the tanning process that causes this? I get my leather from a couple sources, and it has happened only a couple times but still... It doesn't seem to matter on color (Tan,Brown,Black,etc..) so I'm thinking it must be in the tanning process/chemicals they use... Any advice/help will be appreciated. Thanks!
-M
 
Its the Tanning Chemicals in the Leather
Bottom line carry your Carbon steel in the sheath but don't store it there or it will Tarnish. Brass & Leather is a bad combination as well.
 
Veg-tan leather is supposed to do this least of all, but I've always heard and followed the advice not to store a knife in the sheath. A couple times I've left a knife overnight in a new sheath that was not quite dry with bad results. That's really a bummer to find out on the morning it was supposed to ship.
 
Kenny Rowe told a bunch of us at Ashoken a couple of years ago that he dips all his sheaths in Balistol to keep that from happening.
 
That's interesting (the Balistol dipping). I'll have to try that on a scrap piece of leather and steel...
 
The Ballistol works; I've never had a problem since I've taken Kenny's advice. It doesn't hurt the leather; it's just a little smelly for a while.
 
Cool, thanks Troop. So do you dip the whole sheath in it, or just rub the Balistol on the inside?
 
I've done both; the dip works the best. When you spray the heck out of the inside of it, sometimes you get a slightly uneven discoloration because the Ballistol doesn't penetrate evenly.
The best way is the total immersion method (dipping). It's the same way I dye my sheaths; I place the sheath in a Zip-lock freezer bag, then add either the dye or the Ballistol until it's completely covered. I leave the sheath in there for a few minutes to make sure it soaks in evenly, then just let it air dry for a few days. With the Ballistol, I let it dry for a week or so.
The Ballistol is good for the leather; it helps to waterproof it. But I use a couple coats of Montana Pitch Blend on top of it for additional protection.
If I know that the sheath is going to be out in really wet weather for an extended period, I'll use Huberd's Shoe Grease. It darkens the leather really a lot, but, man, that stuff works.
 
Guys

Fieibings sells a leather finish called Resolene. It is basically an acrylic finish probably the same as some of the Acrylic floor finishes. A good coat of this on the inside of the scabbard seals it up so the chemicals in the leather don't come in contact with the knife blade. Its water base and can be applied with a Q-tip or most any variety of brush. Tandy use to carry it but I see they switched brands for their leather finishes.

Jim A.
 
Thanks for the input, Troop. Much appreciated!

DAMNENG, I have some of their acrylic resolene at the moment (I use it as a top coat for my sheaths). I haven't thought of putting it on the inside of the sheath, but that's a great idea.

Anyone know if Neatsfoot Oil will help limit the corrosive effect of the tanning chemicals?
 
Mineral oil also works, if the sheath is soaked in it. I soak my sheaths for about 30 minutes, drain, and let sit for a few days. After that, no discoloration on a clean, oiled blade.
 
I've never heard of Balistoil before but a quick look at the balistoil.com website said that it is good for;

FIREARMS - Cleans & dissolves traces of copper, lead, brass, zinc, & tombac. Lubricates & protects firearms, lock, stock & barrel. Forms a film that protects against rust. Will never gum-up or harden. Ideal for pistol grips, & rifle stocks.

BLACK POWDER - Dissolves black powder residues. Emulsifies with water. Mildly alkaline, neutralizes acids. Excellent patch lube.

LEATHER - Use on boots, shoes, gloves, holsters, slings, & saddles. Protects leather against water. Keeps leather soft & pliable, will darken lighter colors. Do not use on suede.

KNIVES & TOOLS - Lubricates, cleans, & protects metal, plastic, rubber, & wood. Outstanding penetrating oil, creeps into the finest cracks, loosens nuts & bolts. Also use as a cutting/boring oil (20:1).

MARINE - Use in motor compartments, on joints, links, wire pulls, & around battery terminals. Protects electrical contacts. Beautifies faded gel coats. Lubricates zippers, push buttons, & winches. Great for fishing rods, reels, & tackle. Protects Aluminum, prevents pitting.

ROAD & TRAIL - Lubricates autos, motorcycles, bicycles, rollerblades, skateboards, skis, & sports equipment. Protects all camping gear.

With regards to leather they claim:

"Leather that is frequently exposed to rain or high humidity will become hard and brittle, if not treated adequately. BALLISTOL will keep all smooth leathers soft. BALLISTOL effectively protects leather against the impact of water, insects and fungi. Its use is recommended for carrying slings, belts, scabbards, holsters, boots, saddles, bridles, baseball gloves, saddle bags and motorcycle clothes. (Do Not use on suede)

If properly processed, leather will contain acidic residues from tannic acid. BALLISTOL will form a permanent chemical compound with these residues within the leather which will make the leather virtually impermeable to water.

Holsters, in particular police handgun holsters, holding non-stainless steel, or not chrome or nickel plated hand guns can cause corrosion in the areas where the holster and the handgun have direct contact. By treating the inside of the holster with BALLISTOL , the acidic residues from tannic acid will be completely neutralized and this source of corrosion will be eliminated.

How does the neutralization happen?
Well, there is an iron-clad rule in chemistry: whenever an acid and an alkaline substance interact they form a salt + water. When the alkaline BALLISTOL is applied to leather, which has been processed with tannic acid, BALLISTOL and the tannic acid residues in the leather interact forming a salt from tannic acid, called tannate, and water. While the water evaporates, the tannate remains in the leather making it water impermeable and protecting it."

It says it's so on the Internet so I guess it's true, huh? Forgive me, but it sounds like snake oil to me. Would I find this in my local hardware store?

Skeptically yours,

LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin
 
lonepine said:
I've never heard of Balistoil before but a quick look at the balistoil.com website said that it is good for;

FIREARMS - Cleans & dissolves traces of copper, lead, brass, zinc, & tombac. Lubricates & protects firearms, lock, stock & barrel. Forms a film that protects against rust. Will never gum-up or harden. Ideal for pistol grips, & rifle stocks.

BLACK POWDER - Dissolves black powder residues. Emulsifies with water. Mildly alkaline, neutralizes acids. Excellent patch lube.

LEATHER - Use on boots, shoes, gloves, holsters, slings, & saddles. Protects leather against water. Keeps leather soft & pliable, will darken lighter colors. Do not use on suede.

KNIVES & TOOLS - Lubricates, cleans, & protects metal, plastic, rubber, & wood. Outstanding penetrating oil, creeps into the finest cracks, loosens nuts & bolts. Also use as a cutting/boring oil (20:1).

MARINE - Use in motor compartments, on joints, links, wire pulls, & around battery terminals. Protects electrical contacts. Beautifies faded gel coats. Lubricates zippers, push buttons, & winches. Great for fishing rods, reels, & tackle. Protects Aluminum, prevents pitting.

ROAD & TRAIL - Lubricates autos, motorcycles, bicycles, rollerblades, skateboards, skis, & sports equipment. Protects all camping gear.

With regards to leather they claim:

"Leather that is frequently exposed to rain or high humidity will become hard and brittle, if not treated adequately. BALLISTOL will keep all smooth leathers soft. BALLISTOL effectively protects leather against the impact of water, insects and fungi. Its use is recommended for carrying slings, belts, scabbards, holsters, boots, saddles, bridles, baseball gloves, saddle bags and motorcycle clothes. (Do Not use on suede)

If properly processed, leather will contain acidic residues from tannic acid. BALLISTOL will form a permanent chemical compound with these residues within the leather which will make the leather virtually impermeable to water.

Holsters, in particular police handgun holsters, holding non-stainless steel, or not chrome or nickel plated hand guns can cause corrosion in the areas where the holster and the handgun have direct contact. By treating the inside of the holster with BALLISTOL , the acidic residues from tannic acid will be completely neutralized and this source of corrosion will be eliminated.

How does the neutralization happen?
Well, there is an iron-clad rule in chemistry: whenever an acid and an alkaline substance interact they form a salt + water. When the alkaline BALLISTOL is applied to leather, which has been processed with tannic acid, BALLISTOL and the tannic acid residues in the leather interact forming a salt from tannic acid, called tannate, and water. While the water evaporates, the tannate remains in the leather making it water impermeable and protecting it."

It says it's so on the Internet so I guess it's true, huh? Forgive me, but it sounds like snake oil to me. Would I find this in my local hardware store?

Skeptically yours,

LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin
Click to expand...


...Liquid duct tape
 
I buy Balistol at the gun dealer down the road from me. My guess would be any sports store that sells guns/ammo would carry it. YMMV
 
To answer your original question, all leather is animal skin treated with an acid. In the case of veg-tan, its tannic acid, in the case of chrome-tan, its chromic acid. Even brain tanning, the chemicals responsible are acidic. It is likely with most leathers that some of this acid still resides in the leather. This residual acid will attract moisture and rust comes quickly. Chrome tanning is popular because it does not require smoking the hides like some of the other methods.
Thanks,
Del
 
Brain tanning only requires smoke if there is an expectation of it getting wet. It is not really part of the tanning process. Brain tanned Native American ceremonial dress is often very white because it isn't smoked. Brain tanning can be done with only fats or oils, if necessary. I suppose then it would be oil tanning, but the process and end result is much the same. Much of the velvety softness of brain tan is from the mechanical breakdown of the fibers , rather than a chemical breakdown.
 
LRB said:
Brain tanning only requires smoke if there is an expectation of it getting wet. It is not really part of the tanning process. Brain tanned Native American ceremonial dress is often very white because it isn't smoked. Brain tanning can be done with only fats or oils, if necessary. I suppose then it would be oil tanning, but the process and end result is much the same. Much of the velvety softness of brain tan is from the mechanical breakdown of the fibers , rather than a chemical breakdown.
Click to expand...

Wick with all due respect, but actually the term brain tan is a mis-nomer since the braining (i.e oiling) DOES NOT tan the hide at all - it just oils and then softens the rawhide. Wash or over wet those un-smoked leathers and you will have rawhide. It is in fact the aldehydes in the smoke that tan the hide. While most folks soften then smoke, there is also a pre-smoke method that the rahide is smoked and then softened.
Oil tanned hides such as the German Tan is a different process, wherein the hides are oiled and then stacked. Heat is generated and this causes aldehydes to form and tan the hide.
see www.braintan.com for more info - as noted braintan and alum tawed hides are the only two methods where in smoke is normally used.

How does the neutralization happen?
Well, there is an iron-clad rule in chemistry: whenever an acid and an alkaline substance interact they form a salt + water. When the alkaline BALLISTOL is applied to leather, which has been processed with tannic acid, BALLISTOL and the tannic acid residues in the leather interact forming a salt from tannic acid, called tannate, and water. While the water evaporates, the tannate remains in the leather making it water impermeable and protecting it."
Click to expand...
I dont use Ballistol though I know others swear by it (hate the stink), but if it is in fact prodcucing a salt then, no you better not bet on this preventing problems - salt and water = rust. It's why chrome tan is considered bad because it leaves residual salt behind.

FWIW - vegtan leather is 4.5-5 on the PH scale (7 is neutral) making it slightly acidic. Seal the inside well and DO NOT store youre metal in it and you will be OK, although over the long run there is NO 100% effective method of preventing staining, etc., but then IMO the patina is part of the beauty of plain carbon steels.
 
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