Leatherman Vs. Victorinox: Long term durability

[Daniel Moore]

I have a Leatherman Wave and a half a dozen Victorinox SAKS and I was wondering which would be better for long term durability? I trust Victorinox more just because I've never had a problem with them and I find the leatherman to have some fit and finish flaws as well as low corrosion resistance. What do you guys think; if you had to put your money/survival on one or the other, which would it be?

Edit: I'm referring to the Wave vs. a standard SAK, not a swisstool, but comments on the swisstool are welcome too.

 

[klattman]

Well, SAKs are _slightly_ more stainless, in general. But a LM will not rust away for a long time either. I would depend on either.

I have a friend with a 20+ year old SAK, still works well (after I cleaned it up and reworked the implements and blades with a stone.). Still looks bad, because the cellidor handles are very worn, but those would be easily replaced too. My old LM wave (7 years) shows no sign of rust and works fine.

Some of the original LM's supposedly rusted very easily, but maybe that's different now.
Does this really indicate that LMs rust more easily? I suspect that LMs are MUCH more likely to be left in the truck, the mud etc, and never cleaned. A SAK is usually carried on person and thus is cleaned regularly. So it's really hard to say...

The bottom line is SAK for EDC or woodswalking. BUT if you need a pliers/wirecutter, you need a pliers/wirecutter and you have to go with a tool.

A SAK is a knife: Great for general and especially outdoor use (get one with a saw), getting through small branches, starting fires etc.

A LM (SOG/swisstool etc) is a tool: More suited to urban/car or other situations where you may need to fix something with wires or bolts etc.

LM and SAK use similar steels, but LM blades tend to be much more obtuse, so the SAKs perform better out of the box. (Though I can reprofile my LMs to do just as well.)

Also, your survival depends on what you have. You are more likely to have the smaller of the two on you, i.e. SAK.

Of course, I use and carry both, all the time. I like having drivers on both the SAK and the SOG (or LM) because sometimes you need separate drivers, or use the pliers with a separate driver. They compliment each other quite well.

Personally, I think the new LM's are better than the SAKs overall (the charge with it's 154CM blade for ex.), but the charge is 4-5x the price of a SAK. :grumpy:

P.S. VT will be here shortly to tell you that SAKs are better, but don't listen to him. He's very biased.

 

[UnknownVT]

P.S. VT will be here shortly to tell you that SAKs are better, but don't listen to him. He's very biased.

It really depends on whether you are a
Knife person
or a
Pliers person.

Personally I've always wanted to carry a knife
and never occured to me to carry a pair of pliers.......

Look at this picture:

All of the Pliers MultiTools have very obvious serious, serious objections as a real using knife regardless of what steel is used .......

If you can't see why -
then any MultiTool makes a fine knife.....

biassed 'nuff fer ya?

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net

 

[klattman]

I knew I could count on you VT.

Okay, so the most glaring problem with the tools is that the knife is on the wrong side for use and for easy access without opening up the tool. One tool that gets it right is the SwissTool. (Pictured above). NOTE that before sturdy blade locks were used on multi-tools, having the blade edge close on the opposing handle was a _good_ thing.

Now, the supertool (pictured above) is old and will be shortly replaced by some new models this fall. BUT Leathermans that have the blade on the correct side of the tool include:

1. LM Squirt (S4, P4, and radio shack).
2. LM wave (old style)*
3. All Juice series (C2, S2, Kf4, CS4, XE6)
4. New wave*
5. Charge (XTi and Ti)*
* - has locking blade.

So LM has eliminated this "issue" on most of their tools (12 models). Plus most of them are locking (including all where the blade is on the "wrong" side like the pictured supertool.)

The other issue is having a bulky tool behind the blade. Well, that cannot be avoided if you want a tool with pliers. Larger SAKs (my cybertool 41) are just as bulky behind the blade, and the LM Juice (C2,S2 and KF4) are plenty slim behind the blade, yet still include pliers and wirecutters.

Another issue is the blade grind, which can be more obtuse on LMs. That generally is not an issue for me because I thin them before I carry.

Finally, some tough jobs benefit from locking blades, which are more often found on multi-tools (although some SAKs have them).

Of course if you don't need pliers, then a SAK with the tools you do need is more economical and if you need few tools, a SAK is _usually_ more compact (though the LM Juices are very tool-dense)...

Now, the original question was about durability. I think both SAKs and LMs are very tough when it comes to kinetic abuse. I have cracked and melted SAK scales, but they (scales) are cheap and easy to replace.

As I mentioned above, I cannot arrive at a conclusion about corrosion. SAKs report less corrosion problems, but again, LM (as more tool) are usually left in tool-like locations and/or tougher jobs where the elements are harsh and they may not get cleaned as often as a smaller SAK that rides in a pocket. The only way to really know is to saltwater test a clean wave against a clean SAK and see if they rust at different rates and how that corrosion changes their function.

I would depend heartily on either, or both. Just make sure whatever you carry has all the tools you would likely need (and the ones which may be important even if you don't need them - a saw/file comes to mind) And carry it all the time if possible.

 

[gatch]

Hello, I am a first time poster to BaldeForums having recently discovered it by accident during a google search for something else. I am not a knife nut as such, more a SAK and multi-tool nut (especially mini or micro tools).

I own both SAKs and Leathermans. I have owned a SAK for many years, since I was a child and only recently purchased a Leatherman.

I must say I think the SAK's are of a far higher quality than a Leatherman, but that is not to say that the Leatherman is not of high quality.

I currently own a Juice S2 and KF4 (what I really wanted is a KF4 with sissors instead of the wood saw), as well as Squirt S4. If SAK made something comperable to the Leatherman Juice line I would have bought that instead.

I looked at the original Wave but didn't like it because it felt rough, unlike the well polished SAKs. I also found the operation of opening and closing the sissors dangerous.

I own many different SAKs including the SwissTool. My favourite SAK is the Explorer - it has all the tools I need and was the first one I was given as a boy by my father.

I also have a Swiss Champ and I broke the small pliers on that - but Victorinox fixed it for me free of charge, no questions asked (I didn't even have to pay shipping and they also replaced the scratched outer casing as well as the tweezers, toothpick and pen because I took them out for safe keeping before having it sent off - so now I have some spares ) - you can't beat service like that. I have not yet had the chance to test Leatherman's service, but unlike SAK the warantee does not last forever.

As to the testament to the long term quality of SAKs take a look at this "True Storys" PDF document on the Victorinox website:

http://www.victorinox.com/newsite/images/stories/taschenmesser_englisch.pdf

There are some other interesting stories, but take a look at page 22 and the story titled "Four years in a purification tank". A SAK was accidently droped in a eration tank which perform a treatment that is "corrosive to metals". It was recovered 4 years later and the only thing no longer working was the spring for the sissors which had dissolved.

Personally, I prefer SAKs, but use both a SAK and Leatherman as I find they complement each other.

 

[klattman]

I also have a Swiss Champ and I broke the small pliers on that - but Victorinox fixed it for me free of charge, no questions asked (I didn't even have to pay shipping and they replace the tweezers, toothpic and pen because I took them out for safe keeping before having it sent off) - you can't beat service like thay. I have not yet had the chance to test Leatherman's service, but unlike SAK the warantee does not last forever.

As to the testament to the long term quality of SAKs take a look at this "True Storys" PDF document on the Victorinox:

http://www.victorinox.com/newsite/images/stories/taschenmesser_englisch.pdf

There are some other interesting stories, but take a look at page 22 and the story titled "Four years in a purification tank". A SAK was accidently droped in a eration tank which perform a treatment that is "corrosive to metals". It was recoved 4 years later and the only thing no longer working was the spring for the sissors which had dissolved.

Personally, I prefer SAKs, but use both a SAK and Leatherman as I find the complement each other.

It would have been very interesting to have an LM in that tank with the Vic.

Anyway, Vic has a lifetime warranty, and LM has 25 years. Both have very good service. I figure if a tool can last 25 years, you can depend on it. I will probably lose one or upgrade it to a newer model before that anyway...

AND WELCOME TO BF!

 

[PWork]

I carry a SAK in my pocket (sometimes more than one ) and keep a Swiss Tool RS in my car. At present I own 15 SAKs and 2 Swiss Tools. I've had no problems with any of them.
I own three Leatherman tools, Wave, Side Clip, and Squirt P-4. I've had the P-4 blade close on me. I've had the blade on the Side Clip come open on me. The Wave has always felt like it is falling apart.

I put my trust in Victorinox.

Paul

 

[Sonny Burnett]

As to the testament to the long term quality of SAKs take a look at this "True Storys" PDF document on the Victorinox:

http://www.victorinox.com/newsite/images/stories/taschenmesser_englisch.pdf

Thanks for this link. I knew about this 'True Stories' book, but I didn't know it was available as a .pdf file.

In the past I didn't like SAK's too much (I always carried a Wave and didn't believe a SAK could replace that, I was wrong), but after reading about them on this forum I bought a Victorinox Explorer in Germany. Well... I changed my mind about SAK's quite a bit and today I own almost every model . Of course I always carry one of them in my pocket, most of the time it's the Huntsman. I also like my most recent purchase very much (Farmer), only too bad it doesn't have the small knife blade that I use quite a lot.

 

[UnknownVT]

Okay, so the most glaring problem with the tools is that the knife is on the wrong side for use and for easy access without opening up the tool. One tool that gets it right is the SwissTool. (Pictured above).

So LM has eliminated this "issue" on most of their tools (12 models). Plus most of them are locking (including all where the blade is on the "wrong" side like the pictured supertool.)

The other issue is having a bulky tool behind the blade. Well, that cannot be avoided if you want a tool with pliers. Larger SAKs (my cybertool 41) are just as bulky behind the blade, and the LM Juice (C2,S2 and KF4) are plenty slim behind the blade, yet still include pliers and wirecutters.

hmmmm...... I think you still may have missed the point.

Look at the SwissTool or any of the other named multiTools with the blade on the "correct" side - blades open and ready for use -

It's NOT just the bulk of the handles .....
but how many good knives does anyone know of have half the wide of the handle above the knife spine line?

Sorry, to me that is still a very serious objection to a using knife.

multiTools to me are still Pliers first, with useful tools, including a knife blade...

SAKs are knives first, with useful tools in the handle.

oh, this:

NOTE that before sturdy blade locks were used on multi-tools, having the blade edge close on the opposing handle was a _good_ thing.

Using another poor design to compensate for a shortcoming isn't exactly laudable is it?
No wonder Leatherman have been steadily correcting their errors.....


multiTools to me are just NOT good knives -
of course I now see that obviously YMMV

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net

 

[gatch]

Anyway, Vic has a lifetime warranty, and LM has 25 years. Both have very good service. I figure if a tool can last 25 years, you can depend on it. I will probably lose one or upgrade it to a newer model before that anyway...

I purchased my Swiss Champ in 1987 when I was on holiday in Switzerland - it was one of the orginals before they added the hook on the back.

So it is now getting on towards 20 years old and I still use it almost daily. I have other SAK's and multi-tools but this is still my most trusted and valued multi-tool. It has been all over the world with me, I never leave the country without it.

I don't see that it requires any upgrading for my uses, and after all they still sell this model today.

Perhaps that is the difference in philosophy of Victorinox and Leatherman - Victorinox build a tool for life.

 

[klattman]

hmmmm...... I think you still may have missed the point.

Look at the SwissTool or any of the other named multiTools with the blade on the "correct" side - blades open and ready for use -

It's NOT just the bulk of the handles .....
but how many good knives does anyone know of have half the wide of the handle above the knife spine line?

Sorry, to me that is still a very serious objection to a using knife.

multiTools to me are still Pliers first, with useful tools, including a knife blade...

SAKs are knives first, with useful tools in the handle.

I don't disagree with you that SAKs have better ergos for a knife. BUT there is always a price to pay to add lots of tools. You can't have it all with a package as small as a SAK scientist (wouldn't that be nice!)
I agree with you on almost every point:
Leatherman Tool Group.
Victorinox Swiss Army Knife

However, the best tool is the one that has what you need on it. Sometimes that is a nice compact SAK (VT), sometimes it's a Pliers-based tool.
If you do need a pliers often, then a SAK is simply not enough.

I can also argue that my Spyderco's have far superior ergos than my SAKs, but then I miss all the SAK tools. My SAKs generally have better ergos than my LM or SOG, but then I am without my frequently-used pliers and wire cutters. Spyderco vs. SAK is similar to SAK vs. LM in terms of size and bulk of tools. BUT sometimes you need SAK tools, and sometimes you may need a pliers. The trick is the smallest tool that has everything you need.

I have mentioned before that I carry both, and I think there are very good reasons for having both at the same time.

oh, this:

Using another poor design to compensate for a shortcoming isn't exactly laudable is it?
No wonder Leatherman have been steadily correcting their errors.....

Well it is considering LM was the first and still one of the best pliers-based multitools. It wasn't a shortcoming since nobody else had anything even close to it!!! You cannot fault somone for innovating a design. LMs have only been around for about 25 years.
How long did Vic take to get the modern designs that we enjoy? How many years before that was the Slip-Joint knife invented? Vic has made changes along the way too.

multiTools to me are just NOT good knives -
of course I now see that obviously YMMV

Multis don't have the BEST knives, but I would certainly say that they can be _good_. I would say that the Charge has a _very_good_ knife.

If you use a pliers 90% of the time, when you do need that knife blade, it becomes an excellent knife

 

[klattman]

To answer Needle's original question about long term durability.

Take a LM wave (most popular model?) and a vic huntsman, both new.

1. Drop off the roof (closed of course), one story, two, three etc, to failure or until you run out of stories.

2. Put each in a vice and with a cable and a pull-scale, test each similar implement on each tool to failure, recording the required force.

3. Put both (or pieces of both) in a tray and drizzle one half of each with a salt/acid solution, allowing oxygen in the air (don't immerse). Repeat the dousing every day until one tool is functionally (not just asthetically) comprimised by corrosion.

Grade the Wave and Hunstman for each test, and report back here.

I am not convinced about SAKs being more durable. I am also not 100% sure about corrosion. I firmly believe that since Leathermans are seen as _tools_ they consistently get much more abuse than a SAK in a pocket.

The only way to be sure is a controlled side-by-side test. Now if we can just get someone to volunteer..

 

[UnknownVT]

Well it is considering LM was the first and still one of the best pliers-based multitools. It wasn't a shortcoming since nobody else had anything even close to it!!! You cannot fault somone for innovating a design. LMs have only been around for about 25 years.
How long did Vic take to get the modern designs that we enjoy? How many years before that was the Slip-Joint knife invented? Vic has made changes along the way too.

Isn't that the point?

A poor design is still a poor design regardless whether it was first or not
it is still a very very poor excuse
and to call it an "advantage" ? -
(Leatherman's publicity would love that take.... ) -

so what if SAKs are better evolved for their 100+ years experience?
well, that's a major point too isn't it?

a multiTool makes a "fine" knife
for those who perhaps aren't that fussy about their knives.

or if there is no other alternative.

Multis don't have the BEST knives, but I would certainly say that they can be _good_. I would say that the Charge has a _very_good_ knife.
If you use a pliers 90% of the time, when you do need that knife blade, it becomes an excellent knife

sheeesh, talk about being ..............

Once again....

a good blade with a lousy handle = not such a good knife -
and a handle with half the width above the back/spine line of the blade is NOT a good handle.....
of course as always YMMV

I made it very clear and several times I don't need a pair of pliers on a daily basis, or any regular carry basis -
so why would I even want to consider a Leatherman or any other multiTool.
.... and why even try to convince me that a multiTool makes a "good knife" -
- it just doesn't - for me -
....and please allow me my mileage??

I made plenty of allowance for yours

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net

 

[Daniel Moore]

I for one am convinced that my Leatherman Wave has VERY poor corrosion resistance. I am very paranoid about rust, so I am extremely meticulously in cleaning, drying, and lubricating, and yet my Leatherman still shows red/brown rust on the blade surfaces and especially in those stupid little square shaped indents at the tang of each external blade.

I am attracted, however, to the plier-based tool. Unfortunately, as VT mentioned, the ergonomics are horrible. I wish a new design containing a large set of pliers could be found

I love Victorinox, and I would carry a SAK, but the poor scissor desgin is a big turnoff, and the only good Vics I have have those scissory. Every time I use them the free arm ends up getting caught in the spring.

 

[klattman]

I made it very clear and several times I don't need a pair of pliers on a daily basis, or any regular carry basis -
so why would I even want to consider a Leatherman or any other multiTool.
.... and why even try to convince me that a multiTool makes a "good knife" -
- it just doesn't - for me -
....and please allow me my mileage??

I made plenty of allowance for yours

--
Vincent

VT, I've never tried to convince you of anything. I obviously know that you would never carry a pliers. And that you love the design of SAKs, I do too. And I wholly agree that the handle on a SAK is usually more comfortable than a tool. When I said 'you' in my posts above, I meant the group, not 'you' specifically. Since you aren't a pliers/wirecutters person, it is painfully OBVIOUS that a SAK is the way to go, but that in itself doesn't mean that LM -style tools are inferior. What it does mean is that they are inferior for you and your purposes. I can appreciate that, I'm not trying to convince you personally. Take all the mileage you need

As far as the handle being above the spine, that is the way said tools are for strength in the pliers. I agree that it isn't the best when it comes to the knife, but the knife still works fine. In fact most tools can be opened half-way if you really want to use the knife to-say peel an apple, which I have done successfully. Would I rather peel it with my SAK? Of course. But I can do it with either.
A poor design (pliers-based tool) is better than no design(pliers-based tool)...especially when it leads to improvements.

VT: since you never need pliers, I feel you are overly-critical at times when it comes to said tools and while they would never work for you, they may be the perfect choice for someone else. I don't want anyone to miss out on the perfect tool because they didn't get both sides of the story...that is why I keep bugging you with my posts.

As I have said a million times, I carry both a SAK and an LM and I cannot imagine being without either. They both do exactly what they were _designed_ to do very very well. They are apples and oranges in some cases, and it really boils down to the smallest size with the tools needed.

 

[klattman]

I for one am convinced that my Leatherman Wave has VERY poor corrosion resistance. I am very paranoid about rust, so I am extremely meticulously in cleaning, drying, and lubricating, and yet my Leatherman still shows red/brown rust on the blade surfaces and especially in those stupid little square shaped indents at the tang of each external blade.

I am attracted, however, to the plier-based tool. Unfortunately, as VT mentioned, the ergonomics are horrible. I wish a new design containing a large set of pliers could be found

I love Victorinox, and I would carry a SAK, but the poor scissor desgin is a big turnoff, and the only good Vics I have have those scissory. Every time I use them the free arm ends up getting caught in the spring.

How long have you had your wave? Does the corrosion affect the asthetics or the actual function? Merely curious.

Wegner SAKs have a lever-spring-style scissors. Check them out. Some have small pliers, but I don't know how good they are.

What about a SwissTool? Do they have the same scissors? May be more corrosion-resistant?

I have a SOG Powerlock with the gold TiNi coating. The implements get some very small flecks, but the parts that are coated seem to be doing great. The scissors are not that tough, but the spring is "attached" so it doesn't pop loose or fall to the side. The scissors work fine on fingernails, paper etc, but not thick materials.. I just use a knife on those.

My LM juice has a lever-style scissors. They don't have as much leverage as the ones on the old wave, but are probably better than the ones on the new wave. However the pliers are a bit small for your desires.

The absolute best scissors are on smaller scissors-based multi-tools. Either the SOG CrossCut (can get in in the TiNi coating as well) or the LM Squirt S4, and even the LM Micra are tougher and better than any I have ever seen on a multi or SAK. Of course these are small tools and don't have pliers.

I don't know if my ramblings help or not, but maybe get your hands on some of these at a store to check them out. At this point your best bet is probably to keep your wave (for pliers jobs, if the rust is minor) and get a compact Wegner SAK with the lever-spring scissors. I would recommend you go all out and get the SOG, you can use any implement with one handle if you open the tool halfway (not ideal, but not bad either), but it's a beast and quite expensive.

 

[Daniel Moore]

Klattman:

The corrosion was only some surface rust (which, thanks to the satin finish) could be easily removed.

As for Wengers, I LOVE their scissor design, but I'd rather have the Victorinox's awful scissors than the Wenger's awful overall quality- of course, I only speak from two specimens, but I've never had a Victorinox lemon with 8 of them in my life and the 2 Wengers I've had had really poor backsprings that barely work after 10 years (unlike an 11 year old SAK I have).

And for Juices: I really wanted one last year, but I wanted the SC2, and I can't find it anywhere

 

[shpshooter]

I've got my Leatherman Charge and my Victorinox Soldier in front of me right now and I really think the Charge is the better knife, for me anyway. The handle on the vic is too small and thin for my paws and in a whittling motion I really have to stop myself from using my thumb to put pressure on the back of the blade (which feels more comfortable, but really risks the blade closing on my hands). The charge however fills my hand nicely and is the perfect length that I can wrap my pinky over the end to stop my fingers from sliding onto the blade. It is definately the more comfortable to use, with or without thumb on the blade (which I don't have to worry about since it locks). The one handed opening is nice too, the Soldier actually feels kinda dangerous to open and close, like the blade is going to spring closed right into my finger. The one handed opening/closing is a real neccesity for me.

Now, my brother just came in the room and I asked him to tell me which one feels better to use, he played around with them a bit and said the soldier, however he has much smaller hands then I. So I guess it all comes down to personal prefrence. I carry the Charge as my only folding knife and don't feel the Victorinox is any better or worse, however it is better for me, which is why I carry it. I guess the only thing one can say is it all comes down to personal preference

I don't really see the big deal behind having 3/8 of the handle width (hight?) above the blade like on my Charge, it doesn't effect performance any. In fact it hurts performance less then having an upper guard like some fixed blade knives have. I can see where having half on the handle width on the bottom hurts performance as one can not cut flat to the handle (I guess scrape is the closest word?) However, again it doesn't hurt it anymore then say...a short Kabar...which has a guard which is about half the handle width on the bottom. I'm pretty sure we can agree a Kabar isn't any less of a knife then a SAK is.

By the way, if you open that Supertool up and fold the pliers into one side it no longer has the handle width problem, however you do lose the lock...that really doesn't matter though when comparing to a classic style SAK though since they have no lock anyway.

 

[klattman]

Klattman:

The corrosion was only some surface rust (which, thanks to the satin finish) could be easily removed.

As for Wengers, I LOVE their scissor design, but I'd rather have the Victorinox's awful scissors than the Wenger's awful overall quality- of course, I only speak from two specimens, but I've never had a Victorinox lemon with 8 of them in my life and the 2 Wengers I've had had really poor backsprings that barely work after 10 years (unlike an 11 year old SAK I have).

And for Juices: I really wanted one last year, but I wanted the SC2, and I can't find it anywhere

Go for fine steel wool first, very gentle and usually gets the rust.

If the scissors are essential _and_ your keyring can handle the bulk, consider the mini-tools I mentioned.

(other scissor stuff moved to a new thread)

 

[sputnik]

I don't think rust is that much of a concern with the higher quality multitools. It would take a bunch to rust out one from normal wear and use. I work in and around a salt water environment. I have found a Original Leatherman Pocket Survival multitool, in a marine salvage yard. It was found in a previously flooded barge used to transport machinery for bridge repair and painting. The tool was completely covered in moderate to heavy rust. The phillips screwdriver head was completely missing and the pliers would not close. I immersed this tool in Evapo-rust overnight. The following morning the tool was washed in tap water and a lubricant applied to the joints. To my suprise there was very minimal pitting to be found. And no abnormal play in any of the mated areas or joints. The needlenose serrations looked slightly worn from use, but I don't believe the rust did any damage to the serrations. The tool has black marks from the chelation process and is cosmetically unattractive, but works fine. Sans phillip screwdriver.
Now this isn't a testimonial only for Leatherman. I think ANY of the better made multitools would have faired as well. I believe it would take quite a bit of immersion and rust to make a quality tool either unusable or unsalvageable.