leaveing the fold..selling out
- Thread starter bigjim
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Jim, like many of the others here, I respect your opinion. I also respect that what you require from a knife and what i require from a knife are two different things. Toe-Ma-Toe Toe-Mah-Toe. It's honest. I respect that as well.
In the same vein of being honest, lemme tell you what I don't respect all that much. I don't respect how you call the DOTD and how the knives are made lies. Look, Yangdu and Bill were never rich. Yangdu is running this outfit out of a smallish home. She has been honest with us and the goal of this company has always been to help those that have nothing the means to support themselves, and I take offense to any one who would even smudge what this company does for the people. Is every khuk Bura, Kumar, or Sher's masterpiece? No. I respect your honesty, and I hope that you respect fur being rubbed the wrong way with some of what is in your post. No bad blood.
However, I do have to say that starting a thread up to say, "Nope. I just don't care for 'em and I'm sellin' 'em off and I'm not buying another 'cause I need somethin' better." Is a little bit like heading over to a Ford car lot, walking up and down the aisles, and telling every passerby that you are only buying Japanese because they have a lower defect ratio.
You're a good guy. You make good posts. However, what are you expecting to come from this? If i buy a brand of knives and don't like them, I don't start a post to say that I don't like them...I just quietly offer them for sale, collect my money, and go buy what I want.
So, I'm very sorry that you don't care for your HI blades and I do hope you stick around. Still, like most things in life, i'm a little confused. For many, it is not about the knives. We KNOW there are better ones out there. We KNOW there are tougher ones out there. However, we are loyal not so much to the khuk or to the kamis. We are loyal to the ideals and community that this company brings to our lives. Some of the greatest men I have ever had the pleasure of knowing I have met right here. When Bura had a stroke, we prayed. When it looked like Kumar was going to pass away we lit smoke and worried. What does it have to do with khukuries? Everything
Jake
In the same vein of being honest, lemme tell you what I don't respect all that much. I don't respect how you call the DOTD and how the knives are made lies. Look, Yangdu and Bill were never rich. Yangdu is running this outfit out of a smallish home. She has been honest with us and the goal of this company has always been to help those that have nothing the means to support themselves, and I take offense to any one who would even smudge what this company does for the people. Is every khuk Bura, Kumar, or Sher's masterpiece? No. I respect your honesty, and I hope that you respect fur being rubbed the wrong way with some of what is in your post. No bad blood.
However, I do have to say that starting a thread up to say, "Nope. I just don't care for 'em and I'm sellin' 'em off and I'm not buying another 'cause I need somethin' better." Is a little bit like heading over to a Ford car lot, walking up and down the aisles, and telling every passerby that you are only buying Japanese because they have a lower defect ratio.
You're a good guy. You make good posts. However, what are you expecting to come from this? If i buy a brand of knives and don't like them, I don't start a post to say that I don't like them...I just quietly offer them for sale, collect my money, and go buy what I want.
So, I'm very sorry that you don't care for your HI blades and I do hope you stick around. Still, like most things in life, i'm a little confused. For many, it is not about the knives. We KNOW there are better ones out there. We KNOW there are tougher ones out there. However, we are loyal not so much to the khuk or to the kamis. We are loyal to the ideals and community that this company brings to our lives. Some of the greatest men I have ever had the pleasure of knowing I have met right here. When Bura had a stroke, we prayed. When it looked like Kumar was going to pass away we lit smoke and worried. What does it have to do with khukuries? Everything
Jake
Walking Man
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That is how many knifemakers in the US operate as well.bigjim said:
Bob Loveless, for one, and any attempt to discredit him will cause you to be thoroughly laughed at!
Walking Man
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Thanks for that info. I hope you enjoy your new cutlery.bigjim said:
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Interesting thread, Big Jim. We all have our own opinions. Some of us even get in trouble for them. You are entitled to yours. I hope you enjoy whatever new knives you are into. I also hope I get the chance to pick up a few of the ones you are selling. Hopefully a nice Pen Knife. I wish you well.
PS: I meant to add that the fun of the DOD's and connecting with the kami's is a big plus with HI.
PS: I meant to add that the fun of the DOD's and connecting with the kami's is a big plus with HI.
Sorry to hear you are disenchanted, Bigjim.
I guess our level of disappointment is proportional to our level of expectation.
That's not meant as a slam, rather an observation on perspective.
I see Hi Khuks as tools, made the old way, and hence lacking in cookie cutter perfection. That lack of 1 of 8 million stamped out somethings feel is a big part of thier appeal to me. The ergonomics are not perfect for me either, but the are a part of the traditional design that gives khuks thier character. The use of apprentices under an elder's hallmark is
nothing new, Brady's Civil War photos were done by assistants for the most part, as an example.
I hope you enjoy persuing whatever hobbies capture your fancy, be they edged weapons or otherwise.
Adios
DaddyDett
I guess our level of disappointment is proportional to our level of expectation.
That's not meant as a slam, rather an observation on perspective.
I see Hi Khuks as tools, made the old way, and hence lacking in cookie cutter perfection. That lack of 1 of 8 million stamped out somethings feel is a big part of thier appeal to me. The ergonomics are not perfect for me either, but the are a part of the traditional design that gives khuks thier character. The use of apprentices under an elder's hallmark is
nothing new, Brady's Civil War photos were done by assistants for the most part, as an example.
I hope you enjoy persuing whatever hobbies capture your fancy, be they edged weapons or otherwise.
Adios
DaddyDett
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medbill said:
Well put Billy. There is no reason to call Yangdu a liar. Which bigjim is in fact what you are doing with your post. Please do not try to sugar coat it any other way. At least man up to doing so. Good luck with your new knives hope they work out for you, please leave all of the poorly made, sold under false pretense knives for the rest of us.
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I think HI knives are good values.
Helping poor people who are willing to work for their keep and being part of a community of good folk just make it better, IMO.
I have bought something like 15 HI products- I know, small by comparison with many of you- and I only have two left. It may not sound like it, but that's actually a testament.
Those two are plenty to take care of my "big knife" needs, and I have chopped some stuff with HI blades. I've cleared the equivalent of a couple of acres worth of brush and small trees with nothing but a HI. I've accidentally swung another HI blade into a marble countertop that was abandoned and overgrown with brush. The HI had significantly less damage than the countertop.
You have to find what works for you. I'm sorry if you feel disillusioned, but just because you found Jesus in another blade doesn't mean there isn't something in these.
Peace to you,
John
Helping poor people who are willing to work for their keep and being part of a community of good folk just make it better, IMO.
I have bought something like 15 HI products- I know, small by comparison with many of you- and I only have two left. It may not sound like it, but that's actually a testament.
Those two are plenty to take care of my "big knife" needs, and I have chopped some stuff with HI blades. I've cleared the equivalent of a couple of acres worth of brush and small trees with nothing but a HI. I've accidentally swung another HI blade into a marble countertop that was abandoned and overgrown with brush. The HI had significantly less damage than the countertop.
You have to find what works for you. I'm sorry if you feel disillusioned, but just because you found Jesus in another blade doesn't mean there isn't something in these.
Peace to you,
John
Mark Nelson said:
I am not sure how to make it more clear than I did. Yangdu says in an almost a daily post that Bura is producing multiple knives. I think that is not the case. I think he is at best watching over a group of workers making knives. I have not tried to sugar coat or deny any thing. I think HI's marketing in this matter is deceptive.
I am not calling Yangdu a liar. HER marketing makes it seem like she is maybe less than truthful. If she comes here and states clearly that all the knives she has marketed as "made by Bura Nepal's best kami" or words to that effect, were in fact actually made by Bura I will GLADLY eat my words. Note the word "GLADLY".
Seriously.... all it takes is a word from her.... I will SHOUT how wrong I am.
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Jim, I think you're a good guy. I think you're entitled to your opinion obviously. I also think you are comparing Sebenzas to HI khukuris. I have a bunch of them; way more than 14. I have had some duds for sure. I agree that the scabbards can be rough, and could be thinner, but I also don't know of anyone who has really extensively carried one of these in the standard scabbard. Most folks will get an aftermarket sheath made if they are going to carry it a lot.
I also think there could be improvements in the chape; other manufacturers seem to have that down a bit better, smaller and more solid. And overall scabbard fit at times could be better. As far as the knives, the blades on mine have been uniformly excellent. The handles have been fine overall. Again, every once in a while one could have been done better, but I sincerely don't see this all the time. I am an anal SOB, and crooked handle rings or sloppy work irritates me no end. But I usually don't find that. It's already sold, but look at the antler BDC I sold on the Exchange. That is a beautiful little knife. I just sold an 18" 27 oz. Villager AK, for $85, which is almost exactly what I paid Uncle Bill. It is one hell of a workhorse. It has an excellent tough blade and a horn handle and will last forever. That's not worth $85? I can't even get a 2" neck knife from some US makers for that! The ones that I have etched show tempering at least along the sweet spot and tip, where most of the work is going to be done.
I do have a huge investment in HI knives Jim, but I'm not a complete dumbass, OK? I have custom knives easily worth $800-$1000 each, but I still buy HI. Do you suppose that after the first 50 knives if I thought they were all crap that I would continue to buy them? Give me some credit, OK? I think I would have hesitated pouring good $ after bad.
I sincerely wish you the best. I _know_ from seeing your purchases on the Exchange that you have a flawless taste in knives, but comparing Kumar's hand work on a tiny anvil in the dirt to Chris Reeve is unfair. If you want to unload your 14 knives to finance more high-end stuff, then by all means do so, but you are hurting your own selling position by running them down; but obviously you know that. Why would I be interested in buying any of those knives now if you have a run of bad ones? Is it your contention that our judgement and taste is so bad, that we will snap up what you consider junk? (Hell, maybe you're right! That 24.5" 45 oz. Neem GRS was a fun looking knife. I'll give you $100 for the POS, OK?
In any case, if you had some that did not fit your hand or were poorly done I think you should have taken advantage of the no BS HI warranty and asked HI to make it right for you. I know for a fact that Yangdu would not have balked at either sending you a new knife or refunding your money.
You live very close by to me, and you are more than welcome to stop by any time and examine my knives. I would be happy to meet you and show you some of the best of HI. The bottom line IMO is that if HI is junk, then all khukuri knives coming out of Nepal are as well.
At least that's what I think!
Regards to you and best of luck.
Norm
I also think there could be improvements in the chape; other manufacturers seem to have that down a bit better, smaller and more solid. And overall scabbard fit at times could be better. As far as the knives, the blades on mine have been uniformly excellent. The handles have been fine overall. Again, every once in a while one could have been done better, but I sincerely don't see this all the time. I am an anal SOB, and crooked handle rings or sloppy work irritates me no end. But I usually don't find that. It's already sold, but look at the antler BDC I sold on the Exchange. That is a beautiful little knife. I just sold an 18" 27 oz. Villager AK, for $85, which is almost exactly what I paid Uncle Bill. It is one hell of a workhorse. It has an excellent tough blade and a horn handle and will last forever. That's not worth $85? I can't even get a 2" neck knife from some US makers for that! The ones that I have etched show tempering at least along the sweet spot and tip, where most of the work is going to be done.
I do have a huge investment in HI knives Jim, but I'm not a complete dumbass, OK? I have custom knives easily worth $800-$1000 each, but I still buy HI. Do you suppose that after the first 50 knives if I thought they were all crap that I would continue to buy them? Give me some credit, OK? I think I would have hesitated pouring good $ after bad.
I sincerely wish you the best. I _know_ from seeing your purchases on the Exchange that you have a flawless taste in knives, but comparing Kumar's hand work on a tiny anvil in the dirt to Chris Reeve is unfair. If you want to unload your 14 knives to finance more high-end stuff, then by all means do so, but you are hurting your own selling position by running them down; but obviously you know that. Why would I be interested in buying any of those knives now if you have a run of bad ones? Is it your contention that our judgement and taste is so bad, that we will snap up what you consider junk? (Hell, maybe you're right! That 24.5" 45 oz. Neem GRS was a fun looking knife. I'll give you $100 for the POS, OK?
In any case, if you had some that did not fit your hand or were poorly done I think you should have taken advantage of the no BS HI warranty and asked HI to make it right for you. I know for a fact that Yangdu would not have balked at either sending you a new knife or refunding your money.
You live very close by to me, and you are more than welcome to stop by any time and examine my knives. I would be happy to meet you and show you some of the best of HI. The bottom line IMO is that if HI is junk, then all khukuri knives coming out of Nepal are as well.
At least that's what I think!
Regards to you and best of luck.
Norm
Yangdu says in an almost a daily post that Bura is producing multiple knives. I think that is not the case. I think he is at best watching over a group of workers making knives. I have not tried to sugar coat or deny any thing. I think HI's marketing in this matter is deceptive.
I am not calling Yangdu a liar. HER marketing makes it seem like she is maybe less than truthful. If she comes here and states clearly that all the knives she has marketed as "made by Bura Nepal's best kami" or words to that effect, were in fact actually made by Bura I will GLADLY eat my words. Note the word "GLADLY>>>>>>>>>>>> Bigjim
Yangdu is not deceptive. There is no disingenuity here. Bura has a young Kami under him he is specifically training. I know this for a fact. Bura makes khukuris. After his stroke he took on some help. I will gladly inquire as to what that help is today, other than the apprentice I mentioned. There is no way Yangdu or anyone could know how many of the hammer blows on each khuk were Bura's. But they are Bura blades. The style and high standard is simply unmistakable. No other Kami makes blades that look like Bura's.
munk
I am not calling Yangdu a liar. HER marketing makes it seem like she is maybe less than truthful. If she comes here and states clearly that all the knives she has marketed as "made by Bura Nepal's best kami" or words to that effect, were in fact actually made by Bura I will GLADLY eat my words. Note the word "GLADLY>>>>>>>>>>>> Bigjim
Yangdu is not deceptive. There is no disingenuity here. Bura has a young Kami under him he is specifically training. I know this for a fact. Bura makes khukuris. After his stroke he took on some help. I will gladly inquire as to what that help is today, other than the apprentice I mentioned. There is no way Yangdu or anyone could know how many of the hammer blows on each khuk were Bura's. But they are Bura blades. The style and high standard is simply unmistakable. No other Kami makes blades that look like Bura's.
munk
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Jim, I respect your opinions, even if I don't agree with them. People's tastes and opinions change over time. For a time of at least a few years, I posted (and lurked) very little on the Cantina before returning to the fold.
I'll admit that I'm not too hot about the way that Yangdu describes/advertizes some of the DOTDs, but I believe she's being completely honest with us. As its been said earlier, each shipment of HIs that arrive in Reno represents several days' worth of effort of the kamis. At least 80% of HI's customers are repeats-people like us, so IMO Yangdu offers the lion's share of the khukuris as DOTDs because the Cantina is her main customer base.
I consider HIs to be the highest quality knives that I would be willing to put to good woodchopping use. They do what I need them to do and look great to me, but YMMV. Just out of curiousity, what tasks do you intend to put your new knives to?
I'll be keeping an eye out in the sale forum. Take care of yourself and you're always welcome back.
Bob
I'll admit that I'm not too hot about the way that Yangdu describes/advertizes some of the DOTDs, but I believe she's being completely honest with us. As its been said earlier, each shipment of HIs that arrive in Reno represents several days' worth of effort of the kamis. At least 80% of HI's customers are repeats-people like us, so IMO Yangdu offers the lion's share of the khukuris as DOTDs because the Cantina is her main customer base.
I consider HIs to be the highest quality knives that I would be willing to put to good woodchopping use. They do what I need them to do and look great to me, but YMMV. Just out of curiousity, what tasks do you intend to put your new knives to?
I'll be keeping an eye out in the sale forum. Take care of yourself and you're always welcome back.
Bob
Svashtar said:Jim, I think you're a good guy. I think you're entitled to your opinion obviously. I also think you are comparing Sebenzas to HI khukuris. I have a bunch of them; way more than 14. I have had some duds for sure. I agree that the scabbards can be rough, and could be thinner, but I also don't know of anyone who has really extensively carried one of these in the standard scabbard. Most folks will get an aftermarket sheath made if they are going to carry it a lot.
I also think there could be improvements in the chape; other manufacturers seem to have that down a bit better, smaller and more solid. And overall scabbard fit at times could be better. As far as the knives, the blades on mine have been uniformly excellent. The handles have been fine overall. Again, every once in a while one could have been done better, but I sincerely don't see this all the time. I am an anal SOB, and crooked handle rings or sloppy work irritates me no end. But I usually don't find that. It's already sold, but look at the antler BDC I sold on the Exchange. That is a beautiful little knife. I just sold an 18" 27 oz. Villager AK, for $85, which is almost exactly what I paid Uncle Bill. It is one hell of a workhorse. It has an excellent tough blade and a horn handle and will last forever. That's not worth $85? I can't even get a 2" neck knife from some US makers for that! The ones that I have etched show tempering at least along the sweet spot and tip, where most of the work is going to be done.
I do have a huge investment in HI knives Jim, but I'm not a complete dumbass, OK? I have custom knives easily worth $800-$1000 each, but I still buy HI. Do you suppose that after the first 50 knives if I thought they were all crap that I would continue to buy them? Give me some credit, OK? I think I would have hesitated pouring good $ after bad.
I sincerely wish you the best. I _know_ from seeing your purchases on the Exchange that you have a flawless taste in knives, but comparing Kumar's hand work on a tiny anvil in the dirt to Chris Reeve is unfair. If you want to unload your 14 knives to finance more high-end stuff, then by all means do so, but you are hurting your own selling position by running them down; but obviously you know that. Why would I be interested in buying any of those knives now if you have a run of bad ones? Is it your contention that our judgement and taste is so bad, that we will snap up what you consider junk? (Hell, maybe you're right! That 24.5" 45 oz. Neem GS was a fun looking knife. I'll give you $100 for the POS, OK?
In any case, if you had some that did not fit your hand or were poorly done I think you should have taken advantage of the no BS HI warranty and asked HI to make it right for you. I know for a fact that Yangdu would not have balked at making it right with you.
You live very close by to me, and you are more than welcome to stop by any time and examine my knives. I would be happy to meet you and show you some of the best of HI. The bottom line IMO is that if HI is junk, then all khukuri knives coming out of Nepal are as well.
At least that's what I think!
Regards to you and best of luck.
Norm
Norm thinking about you was my biggest hurdle in gathering the courage to make my post. I should have known you would rise to the task. Well said my friend.
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munk said:
Jim, Kumar was a super prolific Kami before he got sick, and he is coming back strong now. There was a time when every other deal had his name on it. But once you have handled his blades you can pick them out every time. I KNOW the blades that I have by him are his. I won't go into details, but he has a very distinctive way of drawing his knives across the anvil, that gives a unique edge to the blade. His handles are also unique, expecially on his M43's. I really believe that you could erase all the script off every knife in my collection, and I could tell you which kami made it. Or do it with your own knives and I'll bet I could tell.
In other words, if a boatload of guys were helping kumar and Bura and Sher we would have a boatload of different styles. These things are forged from truck springs!, not cut from sheet metal. There is just no way they could come out so uniform if different guys were forging them. My theory is that Bura has help with the handles, but even then we know he does the scrimshanding himself now, and most of the work is his.
I hope that this discrepancy you feel you see is not the only reason you have decided to get rid of all your HI knives, and that perhaps realizing how you are evaluating their quality that you might give them a second look. At the same time, I respect your right to speak honestly about what you see as issues that affect you negatively, and hope you will stick around.
Regards,
Norm
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Bye.
If you have a wood handled HI seax, please send it my way.
Mine never made it to me, and I guarantee I'll give yours a good home.
If you have a wood handled HI seax, please send it my way.
Mine never made it to me, and I guarantee I'll give yours a good home.
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bigjim said:
Jim, I am flattered that you would even consider my feelings. Whether you happen to be 100% right or 100% off base, or somewhere in the middle, you did the right thing by speaking your conscience.
My sole objection would be to the characterization that Yangdu is selling Bura's knives under false pretenses, which I think is a real misunderstanding, and implying that she is lying about it dishonors her. Your other views as to handles, steel heat treat, general quality, etc., etc., are your own, and I can only tell you my views and real-world experiences in return.
The best to you Jim, and don't be a stranger. The Cantina is a huge part of what this forum is about, and we don't talk knives there.
Norm
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Bigjim, please consider the following questions. You don't have to answer me, answer yourself.
1.) Do you have a full price HI carved YCS or a silver mounted Dhankuta?
Have not you noticed they cost considerably more too?
2.) Do you think the kamis should spend a week on each knife, when they have familes to feed and HI has customer demand to satisfy? Don't you think the kamis would produce much better finished knives if they would spend longer time on them?
3.) Don't you think this would drive up the prices of the knives?
4.) If you did not like the knives you received, have you tried to return them to Yangdu? Did she refuse to take them back and reimburse you?
5.) If you were dissatisfied with the HI products, why did you continue to buy 14 of them for over a year? Has anybody forced you to buy them?
6.) Why did you try to collect things you evidently disliked? Are you also collecting rugs, paintings, pottery or carvings you don't like?
7.) Why are you blaming others for your own choices?
8.) Why are you questioning Yangdu's integrity? Do you have concrete evidence that Bura did not make the knives with his marks?
Yesterday I've read trough a knife encyclopedia in a Barns and Nobles store which featured a lot of Russian art knife makers. Many of them use wootz or pattern welded steels made by other smiths. The engravings, ivory carvings, scrimshaws, silversmithing or other details are done also by others. I've seen knives made by the colllaboration of at least 4 people, still the main credit went to the knife maker.
9.) Why didn't you post long ago your dissatisfaction here in the Forum?
Maybe this would have helped you to realize sooner that khukuries or the HI products are not for you.
I am sorry to say, but your posts in this thread give me the impression that you are too easily influenced to do things you actually don't like.
1.) Do you have a full price HI carved YCS or a silver mounted Dhankuta?
Have not you noticed they cost considerably more too?
2.) Do you think the kamis should spend a week on each knife, when they have familes to feed and HI has customer demand to satisfy? Don't you think the kamis would produce much better finished knives if they would spend longer time on them?
3.) Don't you think this would drive up the prices of the knives?
4.) If you did not like the knives you received, have you tried to return them to Yangdu? Did she refuse to take them back and reimburse you?
5.) If you were dissatisfied with the HI products, why did you continue to buy 14 of them for over a year? Has anybody forced you to buy them?
6.) Why did you try to collect things you evidently disliked? Are you also collecting rugs, paintings, pottery or carvings you don't like?
7.) Why are you blaming others for your own choices?
8.) Why are you questioning Yangdu's integrity? Do you have concrete evidence that Bura did not make the knives with his marks?
Yesterday I've read trough a knife encyclopedia in a Barns and Nobles store which featured a lot of Russian art knife makers. Many of them use wootz or pattern welded steels made by other smiths. The engravings, ivory carvings, scrimshaws, silversmithing or other details are done also by others. I've seen knives made by the colllaboration of at least 4 people, still the main credit went to the knife maker.
9.) Why didn't you post long ago your dissatisfaction here in the Forum?
Maybe this would have helped you to realize sooner that khukuries or the HI products are not for you.
I am sorry to say, but your posts in this thread give me the impression that you are too easily influenced to do things you actually don't like.
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I have read many times that Japanese master sword-makers did not actually swing the hammer. They held the steel as it was forged, directed their assitants who swung the hammers, and -- above all -- performed the critical plunge of the hot blade into the correct temperature water when the steel was exactly the right color. Does that mean that the genuine maker's mark on the tang of a classic Old Sword Period Nihonto is an act of dishonestly? I think not. Sword-collectors think not. We understand.
I have never assumed that Bura did all the brute work to turn out a "Bura" khukuri, expecially after his very public stroke. ( I suspect Bo Randall is not doing all the work either.)
The scabbards are traditional, except for the chaps, which could be improved by simply making them less pointy. If you dislike their thickness, you dislike the traditional form.
Your expectations were what they were.
Your disappointment is what it is.
I have never assumed that Bura did all the brute work to turn out a "Bura" khukuri, expecially after his very public stroke. ( I suspect Bo Randall is not doing all the work either.)
The scabbards are traditional, except for the chaps, which could be improved by simply making them less pointy. If you dislike their thickness, you dislike the traditional form.
Your expectations were what they were.
Your disappointment is what it is.
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