Let’s talk about S35VN

Accelerator

Accelerator

Joined
Oct 16, 2010
Messages
995
Edited to say that this is not a bash, but rather why present an A+ product (the knife) with a C+ steel (S35VN). I know S45VN is coming, but not much of an upgrade, but hey, anything is better than nothing. Read on to get my thoughts.

I know that there’s been a lot of discussion about the Rockwell hardness of S35VN over the years. CRK bumped it up 2 points (57-59 to 58-60, although those numbers may be a point or 2 off I’m going off memory). For many years, I would not touch a midtech without a super steel. That changed when I asked my wife to get me a micarta 21 Insingo for my 50th birthday (6/20, my first CRK). I fell in love with the knife. I loved it so much I immediately sold a few Hinderers from my collection to buy a Knifeart Damascus (7/20, see pics). After carrying both knives everyday since then I’ve discovered 2 things. I put both knives to work hard, I’m an R&D engineer in a military arms factory (DOD contractor) I use my knives all day, every day. I have discovered that at the end of every day, or sometimes every 2nd day, I need to sharpen the S35VN. It gets dull such that it rips (with enough force) instead of cuts/slices. The Damascus (DT ladder) holds an edge longer by quite a bit, but still needs a good stropping by the end of the day. The S35VN needs carbon rods to sharpen.

So what I’m saying is this, CRK, you make a world class knife (which I love like no other), but you put a high maintenance blade on it with a low maintenance frame. Why? I know you bought a foundry’s mill run worth of the steel (S35VN) but sell that to another manufacturer and move on. You’re killing me. It’s like buying a Ferrari with a Chevy engine.
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To add to the post, in the last picture the steels are as follows;
Southard Tolk CTS-XHP
Curtiss F3 M390
Hinderer XM-18 20CV
Koenig Arius 204CP
21 Micarta S35VN
Knifeart 21 DT Ladder Damascus
 
Also to add, I love CRK’s, I’m not bashing them, but I’d love a knife that I can use hard all week and only need to sharpen once instead of 3-4 times. I put some hard use on my knives daily, no I don’t use them as screwdrivers, prybars, etc, I cut and slice all day everyday.
 
Accelerator said:
...I cut and slice all day everyday.
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What kind of materials do you cut?
What's your favorite blade steel so far (and from what maker)?
It sounds like your experiences would be of great interest to most folks here!

Like a lot of guys, I might use my knife once or twice or a half-dozen times in a day, or I might not even need to use it for a day or two days or a half-dozen days. But yet I'm still interested (too much!) in blade steels and their performance...
 
S35VN is a great steel and Easily matches many of the other so called super steels. Not All companies HT it the same though and that is what you are experiencing. In my experience the past few years, nobody does S35VN like Spartan Blades. Their S35VN holds an edge literally forever. CRK has upped there HT RC, but I really haven’t noticed a difference. I have some Spartans in S45VN, but haven’t used them yet to compare. I gotta get on that...lol. Unsure when CRK is switching to S45VN.

DT damascus holds a great edge. I have always likened it to S30V in that it’s easier to sharpen like S30V but does hold an edge longer like S35VN. I do have a couple Spartans with CN Damascus which is what CRK uses now. I have heard great things from others how it’s better than DT. But I haven’t EDC’ed yet to compare. DT damascus is amazing stuff though that brings additional beauty when using. I have lots of experience with it.

In the end, try what I suggested above. I carry and EDC multiple Sebenzas and Spartans with S35VN and do see the difference. The Sebenza blade is just thinner being the main difference blade wise.
 
desmobob said:
What kind of materials do you cut?
What's your favorite blade steel so far (and from what maker)?
It sounds like your experiences would be of great interest to most folks here!

Like a lot of guys, I might use my knife once or twice or a half-dozen times in a day, or I might not even need to use it for a day or two days or a half-dozen days. But yet I'm still interested (too much!) in blade steels and their performance...
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Lots of cardboard. Packing materials (bubble wrap, various tapes, butcher paper) twine, paracord, polyurethane packaging, strapping (seat belt type materials), canvas drop cloths, various nylons and occasionally some foam like materials (shipping materials). So nothing ridiculous and certainly nothing that would/should require a specialized tool.

As far as what steels have performed better for me (edge holding), Benchmade 810 M4, Southards XHP, Spyderco’s 204P (Southard flipper, original), Ritter Griptilian M390, Southern Grind Bad Monkey (14C something or another), Becker’s 1095CV, and Benchmade’s Osborne S30V to name a few. Each one of these knives I’ve owned and carried over the years at the same job cutting the same materials and have been able to go longer between sharpenings. Now I know edge geometry, heat treat and other factors come into play certainly, no debate there. My point is, I just find that my 21 regularly peters out before my job is done and I end up reaching for something else (box cutter most often), to finish work that day. I wrote this post after resharpening my 21 last night in preparation of carrying it to work this morning. Again, I’m absolutely in love with this knife, I just wish that the edge could keep up with my workload on a day to day basis.
 
Accelerator Accelerator I don’t have a lot of experience with other super steels to make the best comparisons. I’ve had ZT and Benchmades 20CV but don’t remember a whole lot about them. It didn’t take me very long once with got into higher end knives to fall in love with CRK. Had a lot of s30v prior.

Just for me personally I don’t have much of a problem at all with CRKs steel and HT. I’m not saying there isn’t better steels and I’m not saying you’re bashing CRK. I use my CRKs quite often and they’re the only ones I use. I do rotate and I try to go at least a week before I do when I’m working with one. The last time I sharpened was October 22 of this year. Sharpened 2 or 3 inkosi’s. I went and looked back at text message dates bc I remember someone texting “what are you doing” and I sent a pic. I don’t strop and I don’t have a sharp maker for touch ups. Edge pro is all I own. Most of the time I stop at 600 or 1k on the factory stones. For my uses a working edge works fine. I can go weeks with no sharpening.

Now I also don’t think I keep my knives as sharp as others tho. As long as they’re still doing what I need them to do I leave them alone. Plus I don’t really enjoy sharpening, so I push it long as I can. I also don’t cut a lot of cardboard anymore. We have a commercial dumpster at our shop so I just cut the packing tape and fold boxes. Little cardboard boxes at the house for the kitchen trash can (cereal, little Debbie, small mail packages) honestly anymore I just rip them with my hands bc it’s just as easy and quick
 
C'mon, man! We don't pay all that money for great knives so that we can "rip them (cardboard boxes) with (our) hands"!?!?! :)

Dcdavis said:
Accelerator Accelerator I also don’t cut a lot of cardboard anymore. We have a commercial dumpster at our shop so I just cut the packing tape and fold boxes. Little cardboard boxes at the house for the kitchen trash can (cereal, little Debbie, small mail packages) honestly anymore I just rip them with my hands bc it’s just as easy and quick
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I will admit it's somewhat hard to justify s35vn for the price if we're looking at steel alone. I have a 31 in my pocket right now and a 21 in my drawer at home but budget brands are starting to use it in sub $100 knives. Hinderer moved to 20cv in the Gen 4 series of knives and CRK is finally moving to s45vn. S35vn is a boring steel and S45vn follows suit in that honestly. But CRK is a pretty boring company in terms of releases. I don't say this as a knock but as a reality. They have 4 models right now (folders only) with variations of those folders. A better word here may be simplicity and CRK seems to do this intentionally and they do it well. A good thing about having a consistent product line in house is that you have control of your product.

As far as the steel goes though everything is a trade off. Chris even said that once in an interview. CRK is made for the user to be able to maintain the entire knife and I believe their steel choice reflects that. I'm sure for them it's easier to manufacturer which in the end does help the customer by keeping cost down but for the everyday user they can take it to a basic stone and sharpen it when they need to.

The reason I chose to have a 31 in my pocket again wasn't because of s35vn. It was because of the company itself. They encourage you to maintain you knife (no voided warranty) and they can fix the knife if you mess it up where other companies can't or won't. Service after the sale is important to me.

In many respects I do get what you're saying though. I think from my perspective there's not really a stainless on the market that I'm that interested in over s35vn. There's a lot of hype behind Vanax but I don't know much about it. I'd love a CRK in a tool steel but that's never going to happen.
 
Accelerator said:
Lots of cardboard. Packing materials (bubble wrap, various tapes, butcher paper) twine, paracord, polyurethane packaging, strapping (seat belt type materials), canvas drop cloths, various nylons and occasionally some foam like materials (shipping materials). So nothing ridiculous and certainly nothing that would/should require a specialized tool.

As far as what steels have performed better for me (edge holding), Benchmade 810 M4, Southards XHP, Spyderco’s 204P (Southard flipper, original), Ritter Griptilian M390, Southern Grind Bad Monkey (14C something or another), Becker’s 1095CV, and Benchmade’s Osborne S30V to name a few. Each one of these knives I’ve owned and carried over the years at the same job cutting the same materials and have been able to go longer between sharpenings. Now I know edge geometry, heat treat and other factors come into play certainly, no debate there. My point is, I just find that my 21 regularly peters out before my job is done and I end up reaching for something else (box cutter most often), to finish work that day. I wrote this post after resharpening my 21 last night in preparation of carrying it to work this morning. Again, I’m absolutely in love with this knife, I just wish that the edge could keep up with my workload on a day to day basis.
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With your uses as stated, then I would highly recommend a SHF as I cut tons of cardboard with mine and many of the things you do as well. In the 2 years I have had it I have only touched it up on the Sharpmaker maybe 1/2 dozen times. They double crying HT their steel and pressure temper which definitely gives the edge over others S35VN. This comes from someone that has owned hundreds of CRK over the years so not trying to steal you away from CRK as you already have them, but from what I have read with your uses, you owe it to yourself to try a SHF. A plain stonewashed was my first SHF and use it heavily. Their steels performance is just unlike anything I have used before as far as edge holding ability.
 
A Spyderco Gayle Bradley kicked an S30V large Sebenza out of my pocket for a while. I got tired of constantly sharpening (commercial construction work). The GB served well but I kept looking at the Sebenza again. I finally got back into CRK's with a large lefty 21 in S35VN. While I don't do as much field work any more, the higher RC on the newer knives helps quite a bit with edge retention. I like the fact that I can take the whole knife apart (easily) to clean it and put it back together (easily). It's tough as nails. It is simple. It is very well built. Sharpening is no more than a minute or two on a Sharpmaker for me. Warranty is supposed to be great (I've never used it). I've stripped wire, reamed fiberglass product pipe, scraped flanges, drenched with gas and diesel and they kept going. Oh, and I cut things too...
 
I believe that the problem is not so much the type of steel, but the heat treatment.
as already mentioned CRK prefers a product that is easy to maintain even in the field. I have knives of the same steel of custom brands that have more edge retention than CRKs.
I also remember when S30V was used, steel that I still like very much now and I never fully understood why it was abandoned by many manufacturers, the disparity with other brands was similar to now.
I also believe, given the philosophy that it will be very difficult to see CRK with tool steel, a product that is sufficiently resistant to oxidation and free or easy to maintain would no longer be guaranteed.
having said that I am looking for a CRK in S45VN but I love mine in 35VN.
 
As mentioned above Chris Reeve in the Blade HQ interviews said he wanted a material people could sharpen with ease. He said he could use a "super steel", but the user would struggle to sharpen it. I understand where you are coming from, but the benefits of my 21 outweigh this issue for me. I enjoy the fact CRK wants the user to disassemble their knives and take care of them. Not too many companies do that and want to void their warranty (i.e Spyderco, etc). I applaud CRK for his dedication to keeping tight tolerances and a quality product.

Go to which Chris reeve should I buy page and watch the video:

https://www.bladehq.com/cat--All-Chris-Reeve--286
 
rje58 said:
C'mon, man! We don't pay all that money for great knives so that we can "rip them (cardboard boxes) with (our) hands"!?!?! :)
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Haha. Ain’t no doubt man. I used to keep my spalted beech 21 in the kitchen junk bowl. It was my dedicated mail, boxes, anything I needed to do around the kitchen, odds and ends knife. It got to the point where I’d walk to the trash can with a thin little Debbie brownie box in my hand, about to rip it, stop, go get the 21, walk back and cut it over the trash can. I just got to where I realized I can rip the thin ones up ten times faster ha. Trust me tho, I use my knife in many situations where it’s not needed.13ED2BCF-95BD-4CBD-8657-37371718565A.jpeg
I can’t strip wire with my hands tho ;)
 
jjg6319 said:
^^^How did you break the blade?^^
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Was poking, cutting, twisting, pulling in some spray foam about two inches thick and it snapped. Few years back I arced it in the exact same spot. I wondered if the arc weakened the steel some
 
S35N is not a C+ steel. It's just not new anymore. It still meets the design requirements of Chris. If your design requirements are a harder steel or the latest "cool" steel to impress, CRK is not for you. I wouldn't want my CRK knives harder or more prone to chips. DCDavis has shown in hundreds of pictures what it's capable of.
 
Like many people I was drawn into super steels during the height of the craze and learned a thing or two. Steel certainly matters but application/suitability to the task does now even more so. S35VN is plenty fine, but I too fantasize for different steel(s) in CRK folders. And I do for other knives as well. While we’re at it how about a tweaked blade geometry and like others mentioned an improved heat treat?

The move to S45VN seems like a fart in the wind to me. And I appreciate a bit more steel toughness in knives the likes of Sebenza/Inkosi/Umnumzaan. All things factored what keeps me fixed on CRK is the consistent solid build and high quality.
 
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