Let's Talk About Sharpening Our Survive! Knives

XtianAus said:
Can anyone recommend a decent strop? I have been using my work sharp field sharpener and it is great, but i am not to fond of its strop + it is tiny.
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Stop bat from JRE Industries. It's a 4 sided bat with 3 loaded sides and bare leather.
 
Thank you both for the input. I wasnt sure if my lack of skills or the quality of WSFS was my problem. I'll definitely be getting a flexxx strop once a little more research is done into technique and usage of a strop. Definitely would be frustrated if I dulled my edge due to inexperience.

I probably should of learnt to sharpen earlier, now it seems like a burden. Plus living in Australia makes it near impossible sending my knives to the makers to be sharpened. So its time to learn.

Luckily i have held onto a few budget knives as my quality products have started to make their way in. That way I can learn on my lower end knives.

Any advice when using the coarser black compound?
Or should I not risk it and start with green and white like you said CS?
 
Aus: JRE also has some excellent leather and they are industry standard. I wasn't aware of their 4 sided blocks when I purchased Flexxx. Just FYI.
 
XtianAus said:
....Definitely would be frustrated if I dulled my edge due to inexperience.... Luckily i have held onto a few budget knives as my quality products have started to make their way in. That way I can learn on my lower end knives.
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I like your plan to use the older, budget friendly knives to practice on. You'll find out though that some of the really cheap knives have steels that just won't take an edge at all (think NRA or Field & Stream gift knives). You can get them reasonably sharp, but they will never really sing. If you start with something in 1095 or an old pocket knife like an Old Timer or SAK or even a Mora you'll be able to recognize if it's the steel or you. I'd start with shorter blades so you can focus on maintaining the angle more easily.

As far as you feeling frustrated about dulling them, you shouldn't. All knives should be dulled. They should be well used. And if used, all knives will get dull. Stropping after or before use will help, but eventually, you're going to put a ding in the edge on a rock or even some sand that was stuck to a stick you were working on. When that happens, stropping may not be enough.

One of the easiest ways I've found to get started in sharpening is to use a guided system like the Lansky kit. They are pretty inexpensive (~$20-25) and really easy to use. You'll find you can learn a lot about sharpening by doing it this way and then graduate up to other ways you may like better later. Other guided systems on the forum are great, but can be pretty pricey. If you try the Lansky and decide you hate using a guide, you're only out $20 any your little brother gets an extra something on his birthday.

Some general (free) advice:
1) start with small blades. They are easier to control, generally cheaper, and don't take as long to get results as large blades do.
2) keep it simple. All you're trying to do when you sharpen is remove material (steel) with an abrasive (stone, sandpaper, rock, ceramic, whatever). Don't worry too much about microns or grit etc. Just get the sequence right: "this one, then this one, then this one."
3) The choice of abrasive isn't that big a deal. Diamond v ceramic v aluminum oxide etc, doesn't matter really. Diamond tends to go a bit faster and you don't have to use oil, but it is more expensive to start. I use the hones that I got when I bought my first kit years ago and they work fine on super steels and high carbons alike.
4) Realize that you'll use the course stone for >90% of the work of sharpening. It's job is to remove the material to get you down to the apex of the edge. It will likely take longer than you think to get there the first time you sharpen your knife. You'll know when you get there because a burr will form along the edge that will curl away from the stone. You're not to the edge if you haven't gotten a burr. The medium and fine and super fine and uber super fine etc stones are only there to polish the scratches made by the course hone and thereby refine the edge. The knife should already be very very sharp before you start employing the finer stones. They will take it from "very" to "scary" to "I'm not even sure this is legal anymore" sharp. If you use them before you've gotten the edge sharp with the course stone, you're just polishing the sides of a dull knife.
5) Don't worry about taking off too much material. I've been sharpening my SAK for 20 years this way and it's still got many years left in it. You've got to get down to the edge. That edge is at the bottom of the deepest nick or ding. If the whole edge is sharp except for that one spot where that bad nick was, then you've got to remove material until even that part is sharp again.
6) Take some time in the set up. The hones get attached to wires that run through holes in the clamp. It's important to get the wires on straight and get the clamp in the same place on the knife every time. Doing so makes it really fast and easy to get the same edge as last time on it. If you're inconsistent with the set up, you're angle will also be inconsistent and that will cost time. (You'll have just as sharp a finished product, but you'll have to remove more material to get the new angle down to the edge again). The clamp can also mar the finish (kind of nice for placement next time, but also unsightly). Use a bit of tape or cloth under the clamp and use landmarks on the blade to place the clamp consistently. Proper setup will be important with any guided system. We've all seen the time Guy invests in getting his setup right for the different runs. He does so because it saves time later.
7) lastly, don't be intimidated by it. It's like learning anything. It just takes practice. You'll succeed, and you'll fail. You'll take the angle too low and chip the edge out. No biggie; you'll just fix it. And you'll be able to fix it.

Learning to sharpen takes some time and practice, but it can also be very satisfying. It's rewarding to put a better edge on the knife than it came with. You can alter edge geometry to make a rotten knife great or a good knife better. You will also find yourself using your knives more because you know that when something happens to the edge, it's not a catastrophe, it normal, and not a big deal.

Good luck




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If I had to start over I would buy a Spyderco Sharpmaker and a Belomo 7x hand lens.
If find the hand lens to be essential for inspecting the edge and verifying that I am putting a good bevel on it.
Then I would buy a foot or two of of 1x4 seasoned lumber, glue leather to the whole face of it, and cover it with 600 grit industrial lapping compound paste.
With that kit I could easily sharpen any knife up to about a twelve inch blade.
If I wanted to reprofile I would probably add a large coarse bench stone, or possibly a DMT medium/fine bench plate.
You can buy a lot more abrasives but this kit would cover my basic needs.
 
XtianAus said:
Thank you both for the input. I wasnt sure if my lack of skills or the quality of WSFS was my problem. I'll definitely be getting a flexxx strop once a little more research is done into technique and usage of a strop. Definitely would be frustrated if I dulled my edge due to inexperience.

I probably should of learned to sharpen earlier, now it seems like a burden. Plus living in Australia makes it near impossible sending my knives to the makers to be sharpened. So its time to learn.

Luckily I have held onto a few budget knives as my quality products have started to make their way in. That way I can learn on my lower end knives.

Any advice when using the coarser black compound?
Or should I not risk it and start with green and white like you said CS?
Click to expand...

That coarser black compound is primarily meant for deburring (is this even a word?) so unless you are reprofiling as opposed to touching up, you may actually dull the edge or even roll the edge if you use too much pressure and are a stropping novice. Bark River gives estimate of 3000 grits on their black, 6000 for their green and 12000 for their white (again with some compound makers, the white and the black are completely swapped around so watch out for that grit count before you go with the colors!). Honestly, fine honing on a fine / super fine ceramic such as Spyderco sharpmaker system will not require you buying the black compound. I did go overboard with the kits I bought such as all the 3 verities of BMT's diamond plates for well over $200, strops, yada, yada; but that stuff will eventually come in handy when I need to reprofile something, I suppose :rolleyes:

In the meantime, with all the ideas here plus what Petey and FancySchmancy have opined, you have some GREAT options to mull over. If I may add my own summary, get a Spydie sharpmaker + two sides green/white from Flex and call it a day for now. If the vendor only offers free shipping over a certain amount, add a bar of green and then white compound to your cart so you will not have to pay for extra shipping later on, specially since I assume that you are still locked in the Land of Down Under?!
 
OBX351 said:
Stop bat from JRE Industries. It's a 4 sided bat with 3 loaded sides and bare leather.
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Finally broke down and sent for a new strop from these guys. I don't know how you can beat this one for something that covers all the bases and is a preloaded multi-grit strop. I've used ones from sharpeningsupplies.com for a long time, and they're good, but two-sided and one of those sides is rough-out. I've found I don't care for the rough out, so basically that's one sided unless a guy wants to releather that side himself. The JRE should fill in all the gaps.
 
Hard Knocks said:
Finally broke down and sent for a new strop from these guys. I don't know how you can beat this one for something that covers all the bases and is a preloaded multi-grit strop. I've used ones from sharpeningsupplies.com for a long time, and they're good, but two-sided and one of those sides is rough-out. I've found I don't care for the rough out, so basically that's one sided unless a guy wants to releather that side himself. The JRE should fill in all the gaps.
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:thumbup:
 
Casino, deburring was a word when I worked in a machine shop. :thumbup:
Gentlemen, do those finer abrasives really help that much?
I find with a 600 grit strop that I've got a finish that is completely smooth when I run my thumb (gently) down the knife edge.
When you look at industrial lapping compounds about 500 grit is where they start calling it a polished finish.
I don't take very many passes when I strop, just enough to take any defects off the bevel.
I see a lot of green chrome oxide on buffing wheels but they are running at high speed and can't afford to have much bite.
 
Fancy: I did notice that the paste which you recommended and use was stated at 600 grit and I had often wondered about the accuracy of those stated grit ratings on any of these compound sticks! Obviously I am not from the world of machine shops and I just throw terminologies around which I have picked up as a layman :)
 
Fancier said:
Casino, deburring was a word when I worked in a machine shop. :thumbup:
Gentlemen, do those finer abrasives really help that much?
I find with a 600 grit strop that I've got a finish that is completely smooth when I run my thumb (gently) down the knife edge.
When you look at industrial lapping compounds about 500 grit is where they start calling it a polished finish.
I don't take very many passes when I strop, just enough to take any defects off the bevel.
I see a lot of green chrome oxide on buffing wheels but they are running at high speed and can't afford to have much bite.
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We use a lot of green in our grinding shop, but like you say, mostly on a stacked leather power honing wheel mounted on a bench grinder. I don't like using this wheel on my knife blades because even though it makes them screaming sharp, I have come to believe that it affects the very outside .002 to .004" of the heat treat. I say this after using blades finished on the power hone and then the same blade that I've finished by hand on the oilstones/strop. The blades finished by hand hold their edge longer than the blades finished on the power wheel, of this I have no doubt. This seems to be a phenomenon that doesn't penetrate deeply, and is negated by a good hand sharpening with no lasting ill effects. This is somewhat of a running debate in the knife world, and just my thoughts from experience. Also, our machine is one speed, i.e. no ability to vary rpm. We use it for deburring machine knives for industrial purposes, and it works well in that circumstance.

Something else that I've noticed is that not all knives seem to like to be finished on the same media. Or maybe I should say that it seems that some steels react better to a different media than what the next steel might. I'm probably not describing what is in my mind very well, but I grabbed one of my swamprats in 52100 last week and worked from fine India to hard black Arkansas to hand stropping with green chrome oxide. It was beginning to shave from the Arkansas stone and then screaming sharp after the stropping. Alongside it, I had a Buck 119 in 420HC for a customer. It responded better to the Arkansas stone, and did not like the strop. So after going back to the Arkansas and restropping with no success, I went back to the Arkansas for the third time and left well enough alone. It would then shave arm hair, but not with the scary sharpness a guy likes. The variable between the two blades was the type of steel and thicker geometry on the Buck. I also know from experience that if I had taken the Buck to the power hone, it would have taken the wicked edge in one or two passes at most, but I no longer do that for the reasons expressed earlier.

Sorry for the wall of text. tl/dr short version: Yes green on a strop works on a lot of stuff for me. No experience yet with white. Seems to vary some by type of steel.
 
Wow thanks for taking the time for that long description and information Pete, thats great help, appreciate it buddy :thumbup:
 
I'm pretty stupid so I think the whole stropping thing gets overthought way too much, but I have played around with a bunch of scrap leather. I'm also a terrible whittler so I have a bunch of chunks of basswood and balsa lying around, I have a 1 1/2 x 3" chunk of balsa that has BRKT black, green, white, and some fine DMT that I forget the numbers on, if I'm at home I prefer the black over any of the leather strops I've made. The entire sharpening process, from roughing out a knife blank with a 36 grit belt to hand sanding to 1000 grit to using an emery board, it's all about smoothing out the edge surface. Stropping just does an excellent job at that. If you're looking to create a sharp edge you just need to find progressively smaller particles to smooth the edge with. If you are trying to refine an existing edge you just have to start at it's widest, weirdest point, and bring it back in.
 
I've been using bench stones and strops loaded with diamond paste for sometime but I have also noticed not all my stones are working on 3V or other high alloy steels. I do have some ceramic bench stones that seem to work well but it looks like I'll have to change up my sharpening setup to handle super steels.
 
I know that Survive! does not currently use any of the Carpenters' steels, but my Q is if anyone has had experience with both Carpenters' steels which are quite popular these days, namely 204P and XHP? Also have any one you Gents (or ladies) have had much experience with sharpening your CPM-S90V? Apologies since these are not Survive! steel patterns but that has never stopped me from barging in :)
 
I have S90V and XHP, but I don't have any 204P.
I don't find either of those steels to be any challenge to sharpen and so they don't require any special techniques.
I have daily use kitchen knives in both alloys and I sharpen them every few weeks.
Ceramics and strops work fine on them.
 
Thank you Fancier. I was also thinking using my Ultra Fine Spyderco ceramic plate (3" x 8" is the size, I believe) then green and/or white compound when it's time to attend to the edge. Don't currently have anyS90V, but a Sprint Rum Military is coming out as Kinfe Works exclusive with that steel plus CF/Ti combo for scales. I'll be all over that one like Grog's lips on a bottle of Maker's Mark!
 
The UF ceramic stone is a nice large one. I like the edges for sharpening and the flats for polishing.
 
I've been experimenting with different angles on my 4.7 in 20CV and have had a lot of success at balancing edge stability with sharpness and increased biting into wood by adding a shallow secondary bevel to shave off the corners between the prior secondary bevel and the primary (ground bevel). Essentially I turn the old edge (or one I've done) into a sort of largish micro bevel. Because the shape now aproximates a convex, I've been wondering if I could get any better performance out of it if I make it a true convex.

I've done it before on other knives and had good success, but those knives were really thick behind the edge and we're just crappy carvers to start. Guys knives are really quite narrow behind the edge so I'm wondering how much benefit there would be beyond what I've already got going now.

Because its 20CV, I thought I'd ask if anyone had gone true convex on theirs and if it made a meaningful difference or not before I invest the time to do it (and then maybe have to undo it if I don't like it).
 
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