Liner lock vs frame lock

[nikoknife48]

Which do you prefer, is one better than the other ?

 

[Tsujigiri]

I like the framelock because there's more area for the lock to wear, and your grip will make the lock more secure. Either one works really well if done right, though.

 

[nate1714]

Well first let me point out they are quite similar.

As one can tell from the pic. (Frame on top Liner lock on bottom)

They both follow the same concept. I would think that Frame locks are a bit stronger since they utilize more metal and thus more force from frame. That however is my opinion not fact. I am sure depending on material and build they can be interchangeable.

Something you might notice is lots of custom knives using frame lock then a production version using a liner lock. That is because less material tends to keep prices down. Also as far as I know there is a fine line separating the two. Some company's may try to say a thicker liner lock is a frame lock and in part they may be correct though I don't have a hard definition for you.

 

[Tostig]

This has been discussed ( argued ) Ad Nauseam on here.

I like , carry and use both of them and have equal trust in both.


Tostig

 

[OrdnanceBubbaUSMC]

The hand's grip does not make a significant difference in how a lock will hold at all but it is another one of those things that is repeated often. Chances are people are not using a death grip when holding a knife and even with said death grip, a small bar of metal can still move within your grip easily if there is enough pressure to defeat to the lock to begin with. A flipper or large tang is the only thing likely to save you regardless of lock mechanism.

 

[Hammer27]

This has been discussed ( argued ) Ad Nauseam on here.

I like , carry and use both of them and have equal trust in both.


Tostig

This.

I prefer a liner because of the ergonomics

 

[harkamus]

Well first let me point out they are quite similar.

You could argue that the top one is also a linerlock because the lockbar is covered by a scale, which really imparts no benefits that a traditional framelock imparts. Framelocks let you squeeze the lock bar when you grip it. With a scale covering the lockbar, you cannot do this.

What do I prefer? Linerlocks. Framelocks feel funny in the hand since there is no scale.

 

[midnight flyer]

This has been discussed ( argued ) Ad Nauseam on here.

I like , carry and use both of them and have equal trust in both.


Tostig

Yup. Never seen a quality knife with either type of lockup fail when the knife was actually used as a knife.

Move along... nothing new to see here.

Robert

 

[kreole]

I would think that Frame locks are a bit stronger since they utilize more metal and thus more force from frame. That however is my opinion not fact. I am sure depending on material and build they can be interchangeable.

Yep, definitely depends on the build. People tend to think the titanium frame lock Spyderco Military has a stronger lock than the liner lock version for that reason, but Sal said it was designed to be equal in strength to the original.

Going off that, one benefit of a liner lock over the frame lock is it can easily be made lighter in weight than the frame lock. The liner lock Millie is 4oz, Ti Mil is 6oz, and even the fluted Ti Mil (also G10/Ti Mil) is 5oz.

One benefit to a frame lock--which is meaningless to me but crucial to certain folk--is that with the liner lock, debris can get wedged between the frame lock. A soldier posted here said he had to stop using his Military in Afghanistan because sand constantly filled the area between G10 and lock bar, making it hard to close.

Frame locks are simpler, which is nice but you sacrifice some features inherent in liner locks. Every addition to frame locks solve a problem that doesn't exist with frame locks. Stabilizer? A liner lock isn't squeezed because the slabs protect it. Piece to prevent over-extension? Again, the handle slabs do it with a liner lock. (Lock bar insert is another to a degree, but a steel frame lock doesn't have that problem.) In other words, a frame lock is simpler by sacrificing some features. Which one is better you'd have to answer for yourself.

Me personally, I have plenty of frame locks but would have bought liner lock versions of many of them if they existed. I like the lighter weight, not having to touch a lot of metal (when it's cold) and added traction/grip (compared to plain slabs--some texturing on metal works well, the Umnumzaan's being one example, but most are plain).

 

[nikoknife48]

I would be more concerned that if the knife in use would happen to twist in hand the frame lock would more likely to disengage because the hand is in more contact with the frame than it would be with a liner lock.

 

[J85909266]

Frame locks and liner locks are about equal in pure strength, from what I understand. They lock the same way. If it is a well made and fitted lock, both are very reliable. Liner locks get a bad rap because they are very popular with cheap, poorly made folders, and many people have come into contact with one or more dangerous, easily force closed, poorly fit liner locks.

That said, frame locks do offer a couple of benefits in that they are more streamlined and function better in dirty, gunky environments, and also benefit from the strength of your grip holding them closed.

In terms of pure strength, neither are very high, although under reasonable use, they are more than strong enough. Much stronger locks are available.

 

[singularity35]

Yup. Never seen a quality knife with either type of lockup fail when the knife was actually used as a knife.

Move along... nothing new to see here.

Robert

What about when they are used "improperly"? Which one is stronger?

 

[cutter17]

Well first let me point out they are quite similar.

As one can tell from the pic. (Frame on top Liner lock on bottom)

They both follow the same concept. I would think that Frame locks are a bit stronger since they utilize more metal and thus more force from frame. That however is my opinion not fact. I am sure depending on material and build they can be interchangeable.

Something you might notice is lots of custom knives using frame lock then a production version using a liner lock. That is because less material tends to keep prices down. Also as far as I know there is a fine line separating the two. Some company's may try to say a thicker liner lock is a frame lock and in part they may be correct though I don't have a hard definition for you.

I would also call that top one a liner lock nate, with a liner as thick as a framelock! But since it is covered with a scale it would be considered a linerlock, and nothing wrong with that. I have more linerlocks than any other locking system, and have had no trouble with them. As tsujigiri said "Either one works really well if done right, though". And that is what it all boils down too.

 

[killgar]

I can't help but wonder what some people are doing with their folders. How much pressure are you putting on the backs of your blades?

It can't be stated with absoluteness that one type of lock is better than the other. Either one can "malfuntion" if the lock, or the knife, isn't made properly. It doesn't matter how thick the frame lock is if the angles of the contact surfaces are wrong.

Despite the "malfuntions" that I've seen and experienced with both locks, I still use both types of folders. I just use ones that work properly.

I can't imagine a well designed knife with a good liner lock failing unless it was due to extreme user stupidity.

 

[singularity35]

This is really funny. When people talk about locks and lock types, the discussion turns invariably to "what are you doing that you need all that strength?" And ok, that's fine, use a knife as it should be used, which is for cutting and you won't need those overbuilt folders. But when the discussion turns to overbuilt folders, suddenly even the strongest locks are longer enough and people start with the "get a fixed blade" exhortations.

 

[OrdnanceBubbaUSMC]

I think it is very funny and very intriguing - the person forms an opinion based on how they use knives and how far they have pushed certain designs out of necessity or curiosity. Collectors have folders that do not need a lock mechanism to let themselves be stroked or do the house chores that a $5-10 folder can do. If you suggest there is a reason or need for a folder with a stronger than average lock mechanism, then you perform an imaginary insult on the other locking folders and slipjoints. It only makes sense for people to improve the main weakness of a folding knife.

Still more and more people saying the grip will enhance the lock holding of a frame-lock. If you can make a fist around a couple pencils or pens with your middle and index finger grasping them, and keep someone from wiggling them - then it might be possible...but I doubt it. Especially if it is a sudden pressure as are the things that usually cause lock failures.

 

[nikoknife48]

I would also call that top one a liner lock nate, with a liner as thick as a framelock! But since it is covered with a scale it would be considered a linerlock, and nothing wrong with that. I have more linerlocks than any other locking system, and have had no trouble with them. As tsujigiri said "Either one works really well if done right, though". And that is what it all boils down too.

Thank you for the comparison. I was thinking more along the lines of a Strider or Hinderer where the handle is the actual lock.

 

[marthinus]

I will copy and paste a discussion I had recently on the Spyderco forum discussing the design behind a propper Liner and Framelock (or Reeve Integral Lock R.I.L) based on my discussions with knife makers and "The Tactical Folding Knife" book that is a great resource.

This is really funny. When people talk about locks and lock types, the discussion turns invariably to "what are you doing that you need all that strength?" And ok, that's fine, use a knife as it should be used, which is for cutting and you won't need those overbuilt folders. But when the discussion turns to overbuilt folders, suddenly even the strongest locks are longer enough and people start with the "get a fixed blade" exhortations.

One cannot change peoples opinion, or what they post regardless if you agree or disagree. It is what it is. There are numerous other trends in threads yet we still participate as different opinions can give a new user or forumite a broad reference in order to come to his/her own conclusion and opinion.

 

[marthinus]

Your sebenza's lock bar moved that drastically? If so, you have a defective item.

CRK carburizes the lock face on their knives, which greatly increases the wear resistance. The lock bar on your seb should move little to none. In normal circumstances it takes about a decade to see appreciable wear.

CRK actually heat treats the lock face. Strider, Hinderer I know of uses a carbidizer (spelling?).

Here is a post I did recently

"There are a few things I want to cover, based on my talking with custom makers and reading Bob Terzuola's book: The Tactical Folding Knife (hereafter BT), where he explains in detail the aspects of a good liner lock and the same principles are applied to framelocks.

Three points of contact:
1. Stop pin
2. Pivot pin
3. Interface between blade and spring (ie, lockface/lock engagement area hereafter referred to LF) Spring is also the liner lock, framelock.

This forms a triangle.

Now, the LF is the area lets focus on first.

BT. refers to the angle of the lock face to be between 7.5 and 8.5 degrees. Les then 5 degrees and the spring will jam. More then 10 degrees and the spring will start slipping off the LF.

Now the start of a radius lock face, the maximum therefore cannot exceed 10 degrees or else the lock will start slipping when the lock wears to that point. As mentioned as lock roll in the video when referring to the Strider.

Now.

Do not thing the angle plays the only role in the lock slipping. The finished LF can have a rough spot, not be polished enough, the spring's interface between the LF can also play a role.

Let us examine this from the Emerson website.

http://www.emersonknives.com/ekKnifeAnatomy.php

If the LF connected to the spring more in the middle or at the top of the spring where the detent is on most (point nr 3 closer to the pivot pin nr 2) then you would experience blade roll. This is when you have vertical type play but what happens is the blade actually rolls on the spring because the spring connects in the wrong place with the LF.

The picture shows the extremes of the different designs, you can have a lock that engages more then the bottom 0.90-.125" of the spring. Chris Reeve has proven this, but, you can also have a knife that engages only on that bottom 0.90" (point of contact in the picture)

Not every lock is the same. The basic ingredients are the same, but the final application is what the maker chooses. This can be seen even with Spyderco difference between the Military and the Gayle Bradly.

Now that is just the geometry of the lock.

The spring itself if it is Titanium can be heat treated or carbonized. Strider and Hinderer do the latter. This helps tremendously with wear on titanium and if done right will last you a life time. CRK and a few custom makers that I have do Heat Treating of the lock. Wear is about nun and equal to (if) steel was used.

HOWEVER. Titanium is NOT PERFECT and it can have flaws in it when received from the supplier. EVEN aerospace titanium (grade 5 titanium). These flaws only become apparent when it is used and is sometimes not even noticeable until it begins to form a problem. This is where a good warranty comes into play.

Steel used as a liner is not always the answer as well. Different steel interfaces can result in slipping. Steel on steel requires a lot of research to find what can be used and heat treated as a spring and still provide excellent wear resistance and safety.

Finally, lockup percentage is a strange thing and depends on the final user. I prefer later lockup as it usually means less chance of slipping off the LF.

I hope this helped you in some way."

At the end, if you either use Ti or Steel, the LF geometry is key.

I have Ti lock custom that I have flicked vigorously, the maker asked me to test the lock face.

Here is a video towards the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgNHmH1A7QQ&list=UUDVjLbnj847m0n9oQa16eHQ&index=1&feature=plcp

Start watching from 2.27 minutes.

BT also writes in his book there is no significance between steel and Ti if done right. A Sebenza will wear for a while and then stop. Most quality locks do this. Chris Reeve also wants a later lockup as he feels it provides a safer lock and less chance of slipping. I tend to agree. Besides. If any quality product wears out so fast, they should cover it under warrenty.

I have seen a 18 year old Sebenza. No issues. I have a Military with the steel insert. No issues. Both locks apply different end results, but the basics are the same resulting in great locks that can last you a live time.

BT also feels that the strength to weight ratio of Titanium is excellent compared to steel.

end

I always assumed that framelock scales had to be relatively thick because the spring action was created by interior routing at the base of the lock bar. Is this correct or is there another process needed to induce the lock bar to bend inward?

Not really. The routing that is done is to make the disengagement for the user more comfortable. STR has made Ti framelocks without any cutouts (routing) because the user wanted it only to have it returned later on because the user complained it was to difficult to disengage.

The cutouts (routing) also provide a "safe burn" for those "accidental moments" when the lock does fail due to excessive force on the blade.

A Emerson HD-7 showed this perfectly.

http://strsbackyardknifeworks.blogspot.com/2009/07/bins-horseman-hd-and-jryan-edc-folder.html

In short

"Contrary to how many readers may feel about that picture above. That my friends is a design that deserves praise for defeating the way it was engineered to go. That HD7 above did its job and so did the designer/maker of the knife. I doubt any sutures or ER trips costing great amounts of money were needed with that defeat. We should all pray to be so lucky should we be the on the unfortunate end of a defeat ourselves one day."

The cutouts are the weakest link in a Framelock IMO.

I have been surprised by some framelocks. A kershaw vapor that I had would disengage with some force on the spine when not held in hand. When I gripped it the lock did not move as ones fingers actually force the lock in.

END

So how do makers get the spring action in the frame lock bar?

Titanium that is used in framelocks have to be at least grade 5 quality. It has natural spring tension if I can remember correctly.

END

Thank you Zenith that is such helpful information, I think I get it now but I do have a couple of questions about lock up;

Why do Emerson's start out life with such an early lock up? particularly on there liner locks?

How does Chris Reeve engineer the break in period into there knives, If I am understanding that correctly. I assume the lock bar wears and then seats itself to the face of the blade ramp?

Thanks,
Dwayne

Dwayne

Emerson knives start live out so early because it is the Mr. Emersons personal choice for his locks. I know of custom makers that also do this.

However, in my experience it is Ti liner locks such as Emerson knives (and there are many others that also do this) that are not heat treated or carbodized lock faces of the springs that tend to wear much faster. In these locks the geometry of the lock has to be as close to perfect as one can get.

Chris Reeve.....well this is interesting because he is credited as the father of the "framelock" or R.I.L.

The reason why his knives do not really have a break in period, or if it has it is very little is one thing: Tolerance.

CRK also does what I feel is good practice in that they adopt the blade to the spring, not the spring to the blade. In other words, when they fit a blade to a lock, they have multiple handles that are pre-assembled, checking in which handle the blade fits best and then if required they grind the blade LF area to mach the spring. They never fiddle with the spring or springs LF area after it has been heat treated and bead blasted to mach the blade. This is good practice IMO and great makers do this.

The only real advantage steel has over Ti is not in its wear resistance, but IMO in its impact resistance if one wants to beat the :spyder: out of the spyderco or other knife.

(I wanted to ad that my knowledge is not perfect and if any maker wants to correct me I am willing to learn, I am just sharing what I have learned from makers and books)

END

Thanks Zenith,

So do you find that the Emerson's locks are close to perfect? I have seen some of them wear pretty fast but I have also seen people really, really abuse these knives more so than say a CRK.

I had no idea about the blade to spring practice at CRK but it seems to make total sense, why mess with the titanium lock face when you can touch up the steel which I would guess is a little less touchy project. So that would explain why the lock bar would move quickly at first as it mated to the blade LF is that correct?

Thanks for answeing all my very noob questions.

Dwayne

It does not really matter if the company is Emerson or not, the quality control needs to be good and with what ever company there have been a few melons going through. This is wear warranty comes into play.

The thing why Emerson knives wear so fast is due to the wave feature. If you wave that knife 20 times a day at full speed then the lock will wear faster.

The second question I dont fully understand, could you elaborate on it a bit before I attempt to answer it in full?

If you are referring to why CRK knives start locking up at 50%, that is his preference (mine to) and the LF is designed and executed that way.

The initial wear on a CRK is minimal due to the close tolerances on the LF and the entire knife. However, sometimes there is a rough spot on the LF that just wears smooth and the lockup will increase from 50%-60% within a few days, or weeks, but after that it would wear very very slowly. CRK wants the lockup to be between 50%-75%, but this is different on the Umnumzaan. On the Um it looks closer to 90% but it is actually 75% and I have yet to hear a complaint about the Umnumzaans LF or geometry.

END

Hope this helps somewhat.