Lock stick with many compression locks - why?

[Eljay2]

I'm quite sure that this topic has been covered at some point, but it is my only minor gripe related to Spyderco, so I'm hoping for more clarity. It seems like 9/10 or so compression locks have lock stick. The stick ranges from just a subtle dislodging of the lock from the blade to a very audible click. I always ask the dealer to find me a knife that has zero stick - where when you squeeze the lock to close the blade it's like smoothly squeezing a spring. From a safety standpoint, all of my compression locks without lock stick seem to lock the blade every bit as good as the ones with stick. Of course, I only care because it's a whole lot more fun to flick the ones with no stick.

Virtually every dealer I have bought from has told me that I'm not the only customer who doesn't like lock stick. My question is: why can't there be more consistency? If lock stick actually adds meaningful safety, then it seems like all of the knives would have it. If it doesn't add meaningful safety, why have it?

I already know that there are plenty of people who probably don't care either way, so we can consider that as fact. I'd just like to understand the reasoning a little better, if possible.

 

[MolokaiRider]

I may be wrong, but I sort of relate lock stick to being a good thing. In my brain it equates to the moving pieces being machined to a tolerance that almost fuses the two moving parts together.

Also, the added benefit of the lock not accidentally coming disengaged.

So in my line of thinking, a minute amount of stick is the goal.

As far as consistency, I think like anything engineered, tolerances can vary due to wear and tear on the machines used, along with variation of materials, and material placement. To maintain a higher level of consistency likely requires a higher cost in production.

Then again, I am no engineer or machinist, so I defer to those who chime in with more knowledge than myself.

 

[sgt1372]

I have no "lock stick" problem w/any Spyderco compression lock knife that I own. I own too many to bother counting how many that is exactly but it's almost certainly over 20 and maybe 30.

The only Spyderco that I ever had a "lock stick" problem w/was a Ti integral Paysan. It annoyed me so much, I sold it and bought a Nirvana instead which IMO s more "attractive" and never had that problem.

BTW, the Paysan was NOT the only Ti knife that I ever owned that had such a problem and I sold those knives (made by other others) too.

 

[nephron]

I think doing a strong flick might worsen it,"its also not marred by the main downside of a liner lock, as impacts and extreme usage — rather than knocking the lock out of place — serve to increase the lock’s pressure and, therefore, its security."
The compression lock, as seen on Spyderco’s iconic PM2 folding knife, might actually be the most ingenious lock design in the entire knifemaking world. And that’s because it takes a tried-and-true concept and transforms it into one of the most secure mechanisms we’ve ever seen. You see, the compression lock is actually extremely similar to a liner lock; in fact, it operates in much the same way — the metal liner within the handle is actually a spring that shifts into place under the blade once it’s deployed, thus preventing the knife from closing without moving the spring back out of the way. However, this one is housed in the spine of the handle rather than the front. That means, along with being easy to operate and quite convenient, its also not marred by the main downside of a liner lock, as impacts and extreme usage — rather than knocking the lock out of place — serve to increase the lock’s pressure and, therefore, its security. All things considered, this is one of the most secure and reliable lock types out there right now.

 

[HP2114B]

I have almost 50 comp locks across 8 different Golden models. I've had one PM2 with lock stick, and my PM(1) D2 sprint has a slight amount of lock stick as well.

 

[gadgetgeek]

When it comes to any sort of lock stick in any mechanism you are not only talking very small differences in dimensional tolerance, but also very slight variation in the surface hardness and finish of two surfaces. I totally understand that some people really don't like any sort of stick. I get that we all have preferences. However, I think that "lock stick" as any measure of quality or desirability or pro/con for owning a knife is a false economy. I'm not saying that it doesn't matter, but that there has to be some level of realism in expectations. I've had a small sample size of knives which could be susceptible to lock stick, and it was all in the operator. So that tells me that the common denominator is not lock design (I've had liner, compression, axis, collar, and arc locks all "stick") but rather that any lock will stick at some point. If I want a knife to have a behavior out of the box where I am the main variable, then I better be prepared to handle it myself. Just like all those who have giant paws who want a knife to fill their hand will have different needs to my little mitts. The main point is to know where the variables are so that you are not asking something at a production level that is actually answered at a personal one. Not having a go at anyone, but I do think that if people enter a hobby thinking that there is a certain "commonality of desirability" they are less able to find the thing they actually like, and waste time chasing a ghost.

 

[Eljay2]

I have no "lock stick" problem w/any Spyderco compression lock knife that I own. I own too many to bother counting how many that is exactly but it's almost certainly over 20 and maybe 30.

The only Spyderco that I ever had a "lock stick" problem w/was a Ti integral Paysan. It annoyed me so much, I sold it and bought a Nirvana instead which IMO s more "attractive" and never had that problem.

BTW, the Paysan was NOT the only Ti knife that I ever owned that had such a problem and I sold those knives (made by other others) too.

I think that you might not be interpreting a very slight disengagement as lock stick. The chances of buying 20-30 compression locks without any stick whatever is very close to zero.

 

[Eljay2]

I may be wrong, but I sort of relate lock stick to being a good thing. In my brain it equates to the moving pieces being machined to a tolerance that almost fuses the two moving parts together.

Also, the added benefit of the lock not accidentally coming disengaged.

So in my line of thinking, a minute amount of stick is the goal.

As far as consistency, I think like anything engineered, tolerances can vary due to wear and tear on the machines used, along with variation of materials, and material placement. To maintain a higher level of consistency likely requires a higher cost in production.

Then again, I am no engineer or machinist, so I defer to those who chime in with more knowledge than myself.

I definitely understand this perspective, and it makes sense. Perhaps the occasional one without any stick is less mechanically sound, but I think it's unlikely. The lock is still completely in the way of the blade closing accidentally.

 

[Eljay2]

I have almost 50 comp locks across 8 different Golden models. I've had one PM2 with lock stick, and my PM(1) D2 sprint has a slight amount of lock stick as well.

Again, I think that I am more sensitive than most for sure. To get 50 compression locks without any stick whatsoever you'd likely need to search through hundreds of knives.

 

[Eljay2]

When it comes to any sort of lock stick in any mechanism you are not only talking very small differences in dimensional tolerance, but also very slight variation in the surface hardness and finish of two surfaces. I totally understand that some people really don't like any sort of stick. I get that we all have preferences. However, I think that "lock stick" as any measure of quality or desirability or pro/con for owning a knife is a false economy. I'm not saying that it doesn't matter, but that there has to be some level of realism in expectations. I've had a small sample size of knives which could be susceptible to lock stick, and it was all in the operator. So that tells me that the common denominator is not lock design (I've had liner, compression, axis, collar, and arc locks all "stick") but rather that any lock will stick at some point. If I want a knife to have a behavior out of the box where I am the main variable, then I better be prepared to handle it myself. Just like all those who have giant paws who want a knife to fill their hand will have different needs to my little mitts. The main point is to know where the variables are so that you are not asking something at a production level that is actually answered at a personal one. Not having a go at anyone, but I do think that if people enter a hobby thinking that there is a certain "commonality of desirability" they are less able to find the thing they actually like, and waste time chasing a ghost.

Just mentioning what I, personally, prefer and trying to understand whether it's the exception or should be the norm. Having dozens of these knives, it's hard not to notice and have preferences. Certainly is no deal-breaker for me.

 

[FK]

I have approx 30+ Spyderco PM2 and Para 3 knives. Only one had slight lock stick,,, it was purchased used and may have been induced by previous owner. The knife is a first generation PM2 with CTS-204-P steel. I lubed it up with Nano-Oil which improved the situation, recently tried some Gunny Glide and it is very, very slight at this time.

This is counter to most popular opinion on not lubing lock surfaces. In the past I had 10 Chris Reeve Sebenza knives, these were very prone to lock stick, even with gently open/close activations. The CRK white grease greatly improved and some I had to counter bend the lock bar to reduce the pressure for the frame lock bar.

Just watch YouTube and observe the videos of owners Power Snapping open and flicking closed the compression lock knives,,, many are border line abuse of the lock surfaces. Not a surprise so many have lock stick problems.

Regards,
FK

 

[Danke42]

No stick on my Smock, PM2s, or Yojimbo. But then I"m notoriously insensitive.

 

[HP2114B]

Again, I think that I am more sensitive than most for sure. To get 50 compression locks without any stick whatsoever you'd likely need to search through hundreds of knives.

Is it possible you've just had bad luck, or that Spyderco has had a bad run of locks? What models are you buying?

My D2 PM1 has a very small amount of disengagement friction which feels like two unfinished surfaces lightly brushing against each other without any actual stick. My sticky PM2 was so bad that I had to use a pair of pliers to disengage the lock. The problem was due to lockbar overpressure, and I corrected it with a minor tension adjustment. None of my other comp locks have any perceptible friction or stick.

 

[Eljay2]

Is it possible you've just had bad luck, or that Spyderco has had a bad run of locks? What models are you buying?

My D2 PM1 has a very small amount of disengagement friction which feels like two unfinished surfaces lightly brushing against each other without any actual stick. My sticky PM2 was so bad that I had to use a pair of pliers to disengage the lock. The problem was due to lockbar overpressure, and I corrected it with a minor tension adjustment. None of my other comp locks have any perceptible friction or stick.

No bad luck. I've had the opportunity to go through the inventory of a couple of larger dealers on more than one occasion over time. Primarily PM2s and Para 3s. This isn't abuse or misuse. There is lock stick on most of them straight out of the box.

 

[Eljay2]

I have approx 30+ Spyderco PM2 and Para 3 knives. Only one had slight lock stick,,, it was purchased used and may have been induced by previous owner. The knife is a first generation PM2 with CTS-204-P steel. I lubed it up with Nano-Oil which improved the situation, recently tried some Gunny Glide and it is very, very slight at this time.

This is counter to most popular opinion on not lubing lock surfaces. In the past I had 10 Chris Reeve Sebenza knives, these were very prone to lock stick, even with gently open/close activations. The CRK white grease greatly improved and some I had to counter bend the lock bar to reduce the pressure for the frame lock bar.

Just watch YouTube and observe the videos of owners Power Snapping open and flicking closed the compression lock knives,,, many are border line abuse of the lock surfaces. Not a surprise so many have lock stick problems.

Regards,
FK

Certainly the harder you open them the more stick there is. Firm thumb opening does it while squeezing the lock to open generally does not as the lock is partially depressed when the blade hits the open point.

 

[ferider]

I'm quite sure that this topic has been covered at some point, but it is my only minor gripe related to Spyderco, so I'm hoping for more clarity. It seems like 9/10 or so compression locks have lock stick. The stick ranges from just a subtle dislodging of the lock from the blade to a very audible click. I always ask the dealer to find me a knife that has zero stick - where when you squeeze the lock to close the blade it's like smoothly squeezing a spring. From a safety standpoint, all of my compression locks without lock stick seem to lock the blade every bit as good as the ones with stick. Of course, I only care because it's a whole lot more fun to flick the ones with no stick.

Virtually every dealer I have bought from has told me that I'm not the only customer who doesn't like lock stick. My question is: why can't there be more consistency? If lock stick actually adds meaningful safety, then it seems like all of the knives would have it. If it doesn't add meaningful safety, why have it?

I already know that there are plenty of people who probably don't care either way, so we can consider that as fact. I'd just like to understand the reasoning a little better, if possible.

I've lot's of Spyderco PM2s and some Spyderco framelocks that stick (for example, I have 3 slightly sticking Hundred Pacers), so I agree with you. Not bad, mind you, but noticeable. Sometimes you can tune them by reducing the lock pressure, the pivot assembly, etc. So I understand that less sensitive people with a "free falling" or "buttery smooth" PM2 don't observe the same issue

That and the fact that the compression lock is uncomfortable for hard use in some implementations (e.g., uncomfortable in the PM2, but comfortable in the Shaman), these days it makes me avoid using these knives. Then again, none of my Military sticks, and I love the CBBL and don't mind back-locks, so I'm good with my user Spydercos.

I just file it under QA issues .... at Spyderco's price point, there is only limited time that can be spent during knife assembly.

 

[Goose 7279]

This is the first I have heard all pm2s having lockstick. I have had my fair share of them and never had any issue with it. If you run into a lockstick 1 out 20 times it's probably a bad knife but if you run into lockstick 18 out of 20 knives its prolly just you or something your doing.

That being said, I believe that all new knives locks have to be broken in for smoothest operation. As you operate it the ground lock edges of the metal slightly round and the knife becomes easier to operate. Even Sebenza owners have a break in period for knives.

My gb1 linerlock was a bear to open when I first got it but it is one smoothest easiest opening knives I own know. When disengaging the lock make sure your not putting any pressure or weight on the back
blade and that you are pressing the lock all the way over.

 

[sgt1372]

I think that you might not be interpreting a very slight disengagement as lock stick. The chances of buying 20-30 compression locks without any stick whatever is very close to zero.

Your definition of "lock stick" may be different than mine but FWIW, when I release the lock tab on any Spyderco compression lock knife that I own, the blade releases smoothly w/no indication of any friction between the lock & blade end, so that the blade drops freely and can be easily flicked into the locked position.

There is no better quick-opening lock mechanism for a folder IMO.

 

[rhino]

Is the lock stick with the Compression Lock really that bad, or just a little annoying because it doesn't have to be that way?

When I think of lock stick, I think of trying to disengage the frame lock on a Farid K2, which requires the efforts of two men, a boy, and a large hammer. Once you open it, it's essentially a fixed blade until you can get home to your hydraulic press to release the frame lock.

 

[ferider]

Is the lock stick with the Compression Lock really that bad, or just a little annoying because it doesn't have to be that way?

When I think of lock stick, I think of trying to disengage the frame lock on a Farid K2, which requires the efforts of two men, a boy, and a large hammer. Once you open it, it's essentially a fixed blade until you can get home to your hydraulic press to release the frame lock.

Just a little annoying, R., nothing bad like on my K2s or Tighe Sticks (no pun intended).