Lock up problems

[Krav]

I have read a lot about early lock up, late lock up, 40 percent to 90 percent lock up.

Are these percentage of lockup really a potential problem to keep a eye on, has any one had a knife reach the 100 percent mark and fail, or nor not reach a certain percent mark and fail?

Please do not bring any knife manufactures or custom makers names into this thread, that's not my point. I just want to see if this percentage of lock up we watch and talk about has any validity.

Thanks

 

[singularity35]

I'm more inclined to think that a too early lockup(10 percent?) would be more unsafe than a late lockup(100 percent?).

 

[Skimo]

A well built liner or frame lock, 10% would be sent back to its manufacturer, the one thing I don't modify is locks.

Safe at 100%? If its of good quality, sure, absolutely. At that point you get a lot closer to inevitable lock rock.

It's not about failure, it's about resell value and what I view as collectors mainly that drive the trend, because a knife with no lock rock, 40-60% will be viewed as better than a 90% or late lockup. Also driven by knife nuts who want the greatest perceived bang for their buck.

The high quality production folder in my pocket is right about 30% with no lock rock and I have no worries about it failing, more important to me is solid lockup.

 

[marthinus]

Here is my standard reply:

I dont know if this might help some people, but I was fortunate to get hold of B. Terzuola's book: The Tactical Folding Knife while at University. This sparked my interest to understand liner and framelocks.

This is a compilation of resources and discussion on angles, lock interface, steel vs. ti etc. that I have compiled over the years.

Here are some comments from a very well and respected maker on the forums that has tested numerous locks. I will not post his name as this was a private conversation and let’s keep it that way.

"I've done some steel inserts in mine. The wear rates are not far off from titanium to steel. Both wear very well. Heat anodizing helps to form a deeper near ceramic hardness on the titanium since heating it by a torch anodizes the ti from the inside out as opposed to using a DC current which is from the outside in or the outside layer only. That ceramic hard oxide layer wears pretty well against even the hardest blades. If it didn't people would have stopped using ti a long time ago.

The real factors as I see it is impact strength not wear resistance. In my own testing for Kershaw and other companies that sent me product to beat the snot out of on their behalf I found that the steel frame knives held up better to sudden shock impacts like spine and overstrike whacking as opposed to the softer ti which could indent easier and deeper scarring the surfaces more. So to me this is the key factor behind it but there is a draw back since steel is less forgiving than titanium. Ti tends to gall or stick to itself and dissimilar metals and this sticking effect has been seen forever by makers as a real benefit.

Not to sound bad but you can be off some on contact angle and get by with it by using ti since it can make up for your short fallings here whereas steel would just slide right off the contact. Steel will demand the contacts be spot on and if they are not well, you'll see locks sliding off the contact toward release easier than ti when the contact angle is not right.

I've used inserts of steel in a couple folders I did a while back. To me having to do them the way I did they were more trouble than they were worth. Most of my folders give me very little trouble as it is. However, I am low key and not selling what is being marketed as a 'hard use' knife either. We'll see how long this lasts but it could be the beginnings of a trend in the hard use category if people start testing them and find they hold up better. It will depend on the steel used. I really fail to see much benefit if the steel they are using is just 410 stainless at 45 Rockwell. Ti is 39 Rockwell or so and although softer by quite a bit technically it wears at such a slow rate that in normal use most folks are not going to notice any diff or benefit to this insert at all. It’s just the guys beating on them that will pick up on it probably.

 

[marthinus]

Now that goes to another issue. What happens when the insert dislodges or falls out? The screws will have to be very secure for some of these guys beating on them and if they think the knife is supposed to take it they will do that. Again time will tell. My thoughts are that overall there are some benefits from the stand point of repairs.

It’s much easier to replace an insert to refresh a lock that has worked its way all the way across the contact. This beats the hell out of making a whole new lock or peening the contact like Emerson, Kershaw and many other companies do to repair theirs. Don't get me wrong that’s an old cutler trick as old as the liner lock itself and it works. Heck many makers do it as a part of the process along with heat treating because they believe peening compresses the molecules making it denser so it wears better.

The point is that is not as precise as people like to be whereas a new insert would be, well, new and just like it was before theoretically. It may even be something the user can do themselves in the field or at home. We'll just have to see how this develops. "

eening the contact is a technique used by cutlers to 'refresh' the actual physical contact area on the lock where it connects to and wears against the blade in use. Since the lock is technically supposed to connect and support the blade at the bottom of the lock at the point far enough away from the mid line of the pivot barrel or pin to prevent 'blade roll', (bottom being the area many refer to as the top since its up by the thumb grooves where one depresses the lock to release and free up the blade to close it. Think bottom of the blade when opened and that is technically the bottom of the knife and the where the edge runs with the spine of the blade when opened being at the bottom running along the full length of the folder)

So again since the lock connects at the bottom you have a triad or three points to support the blade when opened. The stop, the pivot in the middle and the lock. If the blade connected to the lock more in the middle or at the top of the lock down where the detent is on most then you would experience blade roll. This is when you have vertical type play but what happens is the blade actually rolls on the lock because the lock connects in the wrong place.

The lock should also be flat not angled at a pitch like the contact is on the blade. Some makers make them and the blade is not quite right so they adjust the lock to fit the blade instead of the blade to fit the lock. This is incorrect and it can cause a 'stepped' or angled pitch to be formed on the lock and that in conjunction with a pitch on the blade is a sure fire way to lead to lock defeats.

 

[marthinus]

The lock should also be flat not angled at a pitch like the contact is on the blade. Some makers make them and the blade is not quite right so they adjust the lock to fit the blade instead of the blade to fit the lock. This is incorrect and it can cause a 'stepped' or angled pitch to be formed on the lock and that in conjunction with a pitch on the blade is a sure fire way to lead to lock defeats.

When a lock wears and works its way across the tang to the opposite side liner or when it develops blade play many times the maker or the manufacturer will correct this not by bumping up the size of the stop pin but by peening the contact area. This again if you picture it is the area showing signs of wear marks on the lock itself and it should be somewhere on the bottom third of the lock far enough from the mid line of the pivot to make a rock solid contact for no play in the blade. Peening means a ball peen hammer and a 3/32 flat end punch placed precisely at a the area just to the left of the contact on a right handed knife. You swing the hammer hitting the punch so it physically 'squishes' out the contact more toward the blade. When done this creates a little 'bubble' sticking out just a few thousandths of an inch and it refreshes the contact as well as compresses the material. This can be done on steel, ti or brass locks and requires different touches or pressures to do it right. It’s been done on compression locks and lock backs also to peen the usually softer area of the rocker arm just a micron or two to adjust the lock for fit before they ship it out the door.

Anodized ti is usually surface only. Heating with a torch usually brings the ti lock contact up to a straw colour or at the least a cherry red orange colour. Letting it cool on its own and repeating this three times builds up quite a bit of anodizing that at times can be resistant to even bead blasting it off and it can harden the metal to the point that it is much more wear resistant in that spot that was heated. Most are done and then blasted afterwards cleaning off the surface that is seen. Others simply don't treat it knowing that titanium is technically a 'self healing' metal that creates an oxide layer on its own as soon as fresh ti is exposed to oxygen. This is true by the way and why ti is resistant to all kinds of corrosion. It’s that oxide layer that forms a barrier between the ti and the atmosphere sealing it off that makes it so resistant to it. Heat and electric current simply stack on layers of this seal and the light refracting off those multi layers is why we see colours. You actually would have to read some of the tech manuals on that to get the full jist. I'll stick with a nut shell description.

Correction. Steel would probably have been dinged also just not as bad and this depends as you said earlier on type of steel, how hard it was set at and so on. Steel as I said requires that things be just so. I repair a lot of knives and most are liner type locks of the thinner type. These wear and indent and even in steel. They also of steel tend to be easier to find fault in contact angles. For example you see a few knives with steep pitch angle contacts 12 degrees or more and to try this with steel will surely cause the locks to defeat with a sharp tap to the spine. Most steel locks need a pitch of 7 to 8 degrees max to work. 10 or above is really pushing it and even Spyderco walks that fine line at times as I see plenty of Military folders with locks that slide toward release back to the flatter area on the blade contact. This with simple spine pressure from my hands so there is no telling how that would go for the user if it was a sharp blow to the spine. "

 

[marthinus]

"Correction:

Peening the contact is a technique used by cutlers to 'refresh' the actual physical contact area on the lock where it connects to and wears against the blade in use. Since the lock is technically supposed to connect and support the blade at the bottom of the lock at the point far enough away from the mid line of the pivot barrel or pin to prevent 'blade roll', (bottom being the area many refer to as the top since its up by the thumb grooves where one depresses the lock to release and free up the blade to close it. Think bottom of the blade when opened and that is technically the bottom of the knife and the where the edge runs with the spine of the blade when opened being at the (insert TOP not bottom as I said) running along the full length of the folder) Even I get confused. Lay people often mean top when they mean bottom and bottom when they mean top because these two points are confused.

The point is the lock should connect at the bottom third of the lock and nowhere near the pivot mid line or top. "

And here are some other comments from me and my opinion.

For those like me that like the theory

A recent few posts I did regarding frame locks, but many of the same principles apply to liner locks geometry.

"There are a few things I want to cover, based on my talking with custom makers and reading Bob Terzuola's book: The Tactical Folding Knife (hereafter BT), where he explains in detail the aspects of a good liner lock and the same principles are applied to framelocks.

Three points of contact:
1. Stop pin
2. Pivot pin
3. Interface between blade and spring (ie, lockface/lock engagement area hereafter referred to LF) Spring is also the liner lock, framelock.

This forms a triangle.

Now, the LF is the area let’s focus on first.

BT. refers to the angle of the lock face to be between 7.5 and 8.5 degrees. Les then 5 degrees and the spring will jam. More than 10 degrees and the spring will start slipping off the LF.

Now the start of a radius lock face, the maximum therefore cannot exceed 10 degrees or else the lock will start slipping when the lock wears to that point. As mentioned as lock rock in the video when referring to the Strider (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUoVPLirWg8)

Now.

Do not thing the angle plays the only role in the lock slipping. The finished LF can have a rough spot, not be polished enough, the spring's interface between the LF can also play a role.

Let us examine this from the Emerson website.

http://emersonknives.com/blog/emerson-knife-anatomy/

If the LF connected to the spring more in the middle or at the top of the spring where the detent is on most (point nr 3 closer to the pivot pin nr 2) then you would experience blade roll. This is when you have vertical type play but what happens is the blade actually rolls on the spring because the spring connects in the wrong place with the LF.

The picture shows the extremes of the different designs; you can have a lock that engages more than the bottom 0.90-.125" of the spring. Chris Reeve has proven this, but, you can also have a knife that engages only on that bottom 0.90" (point of contact in the picture)

Not every lock is the same. The basic ingredients are the same, but the final application is what the maker chooses. This can be seen even with Spyderco difference between the Military and the Gayle Bradly.

Now that is just the geometry of the lock.
 

The spring itself if it is Titanium can be heat treated or carbonized. Strider and Hinderer do the latter. This helps tremendously with wear on titanium and if done right will last you a life time. CRK and a few custom makers that I have do Heat Treating of the lock. Wear is about nun and equal to (if) steel was used.

HOWEVER. Titanium is NOT PERFECT and it can have flaws in it when received from the supplier. EVEN aerospace titanium (grade 5 titanium). These flaws only become apparent when it is used and is sometimes not even noticeable until it begins to form a problem. This is where a good warranty comes into play.

Steel used as a liner is not always the answer as well. Different steel interfaces can result in slipping. Steel on steel requires a lot of research to find what can be used and heat treated as a spring and still provide excellent wear resistance and safety.

Finally, lockup percentage is a strange thing and depends on the final user. I prefer later lockup as it usually means less chance of slipping off the LF.

I hope this helped you in some way."

At the end, if you either use Ti or Steel, the LF geometry is key.

I have Ti lock custom that I have flicked vigorously, the maker asked me to test the lock face.

BT also writes in his book there is no significance between steel and Ti if done right. A Sebenza will wear for a while and then stop. Most quality locks do this. Chris Reeve also wants a later lockup as he feels it provides a safer lock and less chance of slipping. I tend to agree. Besides. If any quality product wears out so fast, they should cover it under warranty.

I have seen a 18 year old Sebenza. No issues. I have a Military with the steel insert. No issues. Both locks apply different end results, but the basics are the same resulting in great locks that can last you a life time.

 

[marthinus]

BT also feels that the strength to weight ratio of Titanium is excellent compared to steel.

Not really. The routing that is done is to make the disengagement for the user more comfortable. STR has made Ti framelocks without any cut-outs (routing) because the user wanted it only to have it returned later on because the user complained it was too difficult to disengage.

The cut-outs (routing) also provide a "safe burn" for those "accidental moments" when the lock does fail due to excessive force on the blade.

An Emerson HD-7 showed this perfectly.

http://strsbackyardknifeworks.blogspot.com/2009/07/bins-horseman-hd-and-jryan-edc-folder.html

In short

"Contrary to how many readers may feel about that picture above. That my friend is a design that deserves praise for defeating the way it was engineered to go. That HD7 above did its job and so did the designer/maker of the knife. I doubt any sutures or ER trips costing great amounts of money were needed with that defeat. We should all pray to be so lucky should we be the on the unfortunate end of a defeat ourselves one day."

The cut-outs are the weakest link in a Framelock IMO.

I have been surprised by some framelocks. A Kershaw vapour that I had would disengage with some force on the spine when not held in hand. When I gripped it the lock did not move as ones fingers actually force the lock in.

Titanium that is used in framelocks has to be at least grade 5 quality. It has natural spring tension if I can remember correctly.

Dwayne

Emerson knives start live out so early because it is the Mr. Emersons personal choice for his locks. I know of custom makers that also do this.

However, in my experience it is Ti liner locks such as Emerson knives (and there are many others that also do this) that are not heat treated or carbodized lock faces of the springs that tend to wear much faster. In these locks the geometry of the lock has to be as close to perfect as one can get.

Chris Reeve.....well this is interesting because he is credited as the father of the "framelock" or R.I.L.

The reason why his knives do not really have a break in period, or if it has it is very little is one thing: Tolerance.

CRK also does what I feel is good practice in that they adopt the blade to the spring, not the spring to the blade. In other words, when they fit a blade to a lock, they have multiple handles that are pre-assembled, checking in which handle the blade fits best and then if required they grind the blade LF area to mach the spring. They never fiddle with the spring or springs LF area after it has been heat treated and bead blasted to match the blade. This is good practice IMO and great makers do this.

The only real advantage steel has over Ti is not in its wear resistance, but IMO in its impact resistance if one wants to beat the :spyder: out of the spyderco or other knife.

(I wanted to ad that my knowledge is not perfect and if any maker wants to correct me I am willing to learn, I am just sharing what I have learned from makers and books)

It does not really matter if the company is Emerson or not, the quality control needs to be good and with whatever company there have been a few melons going through. This is wear warranty comes into play.

The thing why Emerson knives wear so fast is due to the wave feature. If you wave that knife 20 times a day at full speed then the lock will wear faster.

The second question I don’t fully understand, could you elaborate on it a bit before I attempt to answer it in full?

If you are referring to why CRK knives start locking up at 50%, that is his preference (mine to) and the LF is designed and executed that way.

The initial wear on a CRK is minimal due to the close tolerances on the LF and the entire knife. However, sometimes there is a rough spot on the LF that just wears smooth and the lockup will increase from 50%-60% within a few days, or weeks, but after that it would wear very slowly. CRK wants the lockup to be between 50%-75%, but this is different on the Umnumzaan. On the Um it looks closer to 90% but it is actually 75% and I have yet to hear a complaint about the Umnumzaans LF or geometry.

Some imagery from custom maker Gareth Bull

^ Nice post bud That zone of 7.5-8.5 degrees really is vital. For those of us visually inclined:

Comments from well-known custom maker Des Horn

I do not believe this is wear.
In my view this is "setting" of the face to a perfect fit against the blade, and once there it does not move.
This is a really great thread giving lots of advice to the novice makers.

 
Now, there is also been some good testing and evaluation done by Kyle Harris (cKc Knives) from new Zealand discussing blade play vs lock security. In short, though we think blade play is bad, making a truly dependable lock in the framelock/linerlock conversion requires some blade play.
Have a look at these videos:
[video=youtube;7I3fJVL3DT4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I3fJVL3DT4[/video]

[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2cZQv5cIqQ[/video]

You can see from the videos that even with blade play a lock can still be very secure, very reliable and would require the entire lock to self-destruct in order to disengage.
[video=youtube;A2f5h9zFQvE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2f5h9zFQvE[/video]

Real interesting comments from Gavkoo on the folder of Kyle and what makers such as Bob Terzuola said about bladeplay being a thread for the specific market, yet there is nothing wrong with the design.

People presume that blade play is bad, but not for a reliable lock. I would venture and say that the Victorinox soldier will only fail if there is a catastrophic failure of nature, same as the Tri-Ad. Under static load, the soldier might even surprise the best of us.

Interesting thing on how durable a liner can be:

[video=youtube;-MxCDbAW638]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MxCDbAW638[/video]
I hope this can be useful and educational to some. I know I went a bit of topic... from steel vs Ti, but you have to look at it as a whole in my opinion
 

 

[marthinus]

Interesting thing on how durable a liner can be:

[video=youtube;-MxCDbAW638]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MxCDbAW638[/video]
I hope this can be useful and educational to some. I know I went a bit of topic... from steel vs Ti, but you have to look at it as a whole in my opinion

One of the best ways I have seen to test a liner/framelock for any issues is to do the following (this was posted back in 2007):

Now to the test method I prefer. I recommend standing with the knife like you see me holding an Emerson liner lock here in the link below. But I also recommend you make sure the lock is getting behind the blade at least to the full thickness of the liner itself before doing this test if you are carrying a thinner liner locking folder. However even on the thicker liner locks and frame locks doing it with barely any lock touching the blade to make contact can possibly shear or ding in part of the lock making it either unsightly or worse so the lock should be at least 50% behind the locks on these thicker lock styles if you ask me.

I've shown this test to people that have carried liner locks for many years thinking they walked on water (as I once did also) only to see their faces when they pushed up on the spine of the blade while securing it just as I'm doing here in the link below only to see the lock slide off the ramp interface and allow the blade to close on their very trusted knife and sometimes surprisingly with very little pressure at all. If the lock even moves at all in this test its not good. You can candy coat it all you want but its not good. A surprising number of knives tested this way fail surprisingly easy. If your lock moves a little but doesn't fail on you from this test, well you have to decide then if its one you want to just use knowing this, or send it in to who made it for evaluation or if its just time to retire it. The reason I say this is simply because of this thought. Just because it moved a little and didn't defeat with the pressure you could muster with this test doesn't mean that a stronger man, or more pressure from an extreme use of the tip won't cause the blade to close on your fingers. Only you can decide on the action you take at this point. And in fact if it moves or defeats you can decide then and there if you want to continue on or mail it for repairs at that point for the professional to look at.

You should do this with your lockback and axis lock folders, and all other 'locking' folders too on occasion as well as check the lock mechanisms for debris, pocket lint, damage and if they have springs check their condition as well unless you can't see them of course. Small spots of corrosion, or thinned weak looking areas on springs should be dealt with by a qualified repair pesron promptly when it comes to securing your fingers..Injury from a sharp blade closing on fingers can lead to serious incapacitation for a lengthy time, numbness or loss of other sensitivity in the fingers, tendon damage and lots of blood loss. Don't risk it out of blind faith.

Hold your knife so if the lock defeats you won't get cut just as I'm doing here in the link. You owe it to your fingers to know not suspect or blindly trust that the knife was made correctly. You don't have to cock your wrist as I did here. I'm just doing that for my wife to get it in the shot easier. Hold it with both hands and using your strong hand with the blade resting on that index finger knuckle simply push up on the spine of your blade holding the body tight so its steady.

You can spine whack your knife if you just believe it causes no damage. But don't be surprised if when you find that it does in fact fail tests that the company doesn't cover the warranty due to the damage it caused to your folder on the inside. I'll leave your decision up to you when and if you cross that bridge.



STR

Umnumzaan design:

The ceramic ball lockup is supposed to look late, but in in reality is not.

Some of you wanted to see macr shots of the Umnumzaan after seeing the Sebenza shots in my other thread and,well, with such awesome feedback how could I resist.
So in no particular order here they are....let me know what you think.
Also, I was shooting outside and as luck would have it it started to rain and so you may see a drop or two of water in some of the shots. Luckily it's all stainless!

Added a little canned air to the perforated washer while trying to combat the rain drops and inadvertantly created a 'spinner'.

"Those who have followed the nearly 25 years that the Sebenza has been around know we continually make small improvements, alterations, advances to our knives. None of these changes are made to follow a trend, to keep up with the Jones or to tick off our customers. They are done to improve performance, safety or production. That we make a change to the Umnumzaan should not come as a surprise.

The disc has been added to the Umnumzaan to prevent the reduction of tension on the lock. Because the shape of the Umnumzaan handle is a little different than that of the Sebenza, it takes a different technique to open and close. We have found some customers are not willing to learn the difference or perhaps they don’t recognize the difference but, whatever the reason, they think it is necessary to modify the lock tension, thinking the knife will open more easily. This simply makes the knife unsafe. We have had several Umnumzaans returned to us because of lock issues – almost always the customer denies having modified the lock. We can see what has been done, and are put between a rock and a hard place as we don’t want to call out the customer for not telling the truth. The disc is a solution to prevent potentially unsafe modifications.

Please note this disc is not a lock stabilizer as it has been called in some posts. It is simply in place to prevent the lock bar from being pushed out to reduce tension. Our locks are fitted properly to very close tolerances and do not need to be stabilized. And to save further speculation, the disc is press fit into the handle. It is made of 303 stainless steel, and is sandblasted along with the rest of the handle. Because it is not titanium, the sandblasted finish looks different.

Will it change further? Quite possibly. What might these changes be? No idea at this time.

It will be a while before you see Umnumzaans other than the Wilson Startac with this disc. This has to do with our on-hand inventory of machined handles.

We are not planning to add the lock override protection disc to the Sebenza. We do not have the issue of lock modification by customers to the same degree as we do with the Umnumzaan.

Before the question is asked here is a quick reminder of the difference in how to open an Umnumzaan and a Sebenza.
Umnumzaan: slide your thumb straight forward, parallel with the handle, pushing the lug with the top center of your thumb.
Sebenza: push the lug out sideways in a sweeping motion with the side of your thumb.

Since there has been renewed discussion about Idaho Made in this thread, you might find it interesting to note that since March this year, the value of our back orders has almost quadrupled. This would indicate there are not too many concerns about the Idaho Made marking.

We appreciate your loyalty and enthusiastic conversation. We know we can't please all of the people all of the time!

Anne"

You will find that as you use the knife it will get easier to work with.The lock is designed like that so that if using under a stressfull situation with gloved hand the lock is not accidentally overcome,with use it will become second nature to you. Push down and out.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...y-Umnumzaan!-Lock-Bar-Question?highlight=lock

further searches:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/701337-Umnumzaan-quot-lock-up-question

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...tion-for-those-who-carry-and-use-an-umnumzaan

And then the cherry on the cake from the thread: Some Words from Chris http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/730951-Some-words-from-Chris......


"The lock should engage at between 50% and 75% of travel. With the Umnumzaan, because the interface between the blade and the lock bar is a ceramic ball, it is the ball that must be at 50 – 75%. This will give the visual that the lock bar is further over than with a Sebenza."

I have yet to hear of a single lock with the ceramic ball interface that gives any problems. Since the release of the Umnumzaan, despite people complaints of it being "late" no one has had one wear out, disengage or develop any "sticky" lock. There has been only reports of people overextending the lock resulting in problems and from there the CR over extension tab/disc or whatever was applied.

Hope my lengthy posts are of some help.

 

[Krav]

Excellent, that answered all my questions and more, thank everyone you for your quick replies.

 

[Sonnydaze]

I'm more inclined to think that a too early lockup(10 percent?) would be more unsafe than a late lockup(100 percent?).

I have had folders that showed as little as 10% lockup. It was a minor irritation, but never caused me any trouble. I'm happier with 60%.
Sonnydaze

 

[singularity35]

I have had folders that showed as little as 10% lockup. It was a minor irritation, but never caused me any trouble. I'm happier with 60%.
Sonnydaze

Yep, had 1 or 2 like that that never gave me trouble too but just looking at that kind of engagement compared to a late one, just makes me think that a too early lockup might slip off easier.