Looking at buying a Forge Press (Coal Ironworks)

Knight Owl Forge

Knight Owl Forge

Bladesmith
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
75
Hey guys and gals,

I am in the market for a forge press and I've been eyeing the Coal Ironworks 16ton+ which has a faster motor/pump. Ultimately when the time is right, I will be buying a power hammer, but that is probably a couple years off. My thought is that with the faster 16ton press, I could still draw out forge welded damascus billets (albeit not as good as a power hammer).

Does anyone have experience with this press and a regular press to confidently say whether it's a good deal or not? The faster press is about $1,000 more than the regular Coal Ironworks 16ton, and quite a bit more than other brands.

Let me know if I should be looking at a different product, or anything else that could help me before I drop a f***ton of money! Thanks
 
What is the 16 ton faster than? I don't believe for a second that press moves at 1.6 IPS at 16 ton pressure pulling 20 amps on 110v. So that means it's a 2 stage pump and probably drops to something like .6 IPS when it hits 500 psi.

Which isn't to say it doesn't work, or isn't well made, etc. It's just that advertising it as 1.6 IPS is specious. My press is just slightly faster than that one, and ~20 tons with a 2 stage pump and needs a 5hp motor on 220. I don't regret building it for a second though I feel like I've out grown it, because I only have ~$700 into it. If I laid down $5,000 for something that small I think I would regret it. But I haven't shopped presses so I don't know what else the same money would get you.
 
Yes, all the numbers on the Coal Ironworks site appear to be listing the low pressure speed of the pumps. They really should post the high pressure numbers also. Honestly Kuraki, 0.6 IPS at high pressure is probably being liberal.
 
Eh, you're right. I was close. Doing the math backwards it appears they're using a 1750 RPM motor to drive a two stage pump with .757/.220 low/high displacements. Basically an "11 GPM" log splitter pump run at half speed. That works out to (if a 4" cylinder) 1.6 IPS in low and .46 IPS in high pressure, keeps the HP requirements at around 2.3 HP to make a max of 2600 psi (to achieve 16 tons in that 4" cylinder).

I'd ask them to sell you one without a pump or motor and put a 220v 5hp motor on it with a single speed ~3 GPM pump. Like a .2 cubic inch displacement gear pump rated for 3600 RPM. Then you can have the same tonnage at 2600 psi but get an actual 1 inch per second ram speed. Since the tonnage is the same, the frame should be sufficient.

The only reason to do it the way they are is to make 110 viable. And if you have to do 110 I guess it's a good option.
 
Thanks for the reply guys! I do have 220v in the shop, so I'll be checking that out. The press I am looking at supposedly moves at 4 IPS, which they claim is 2.5x faster than the 1.6 IPS setup. Let's say that the press can actually operate at that speed in higher pressures... would this be fast enough to draw out a billet without sucking the heat out of it?

Here is a competitor's press https://www.riversidemachine.net/ecommerce/hydraulic-press/uncleal-s-hydraulic-press.html

It's 24 ton and way cheaper...
 
kuraki said:
Eh, you're right. I was close. Doing the math backwards it appears they're using a 1750 RPM motor to drive a two stage pump with .757/.220 low/high displacements. Basically an "11 GPM" log splitter pump run at half speed. That works out to (if a 4" cylinder) 1.6 IPS in low and .46 IPS in high pressure, keeps the HP requirements at around 2.3 HP to make a max of 2600 psi (to achieve 16 tons in that 4" cylinder).

I'd ask them to sell you one without a pump or motor and put a 220v 5hp motor on it with a single speed ~3 GPM pump. Like a .2 cubic inch displacement gear pump rated for 3600 RPM. Then you can have the same tonnage at 2600 psi but get an actual 1 inch per second ram speed. Since the tonnage is the same, the frame should be sufficient.

The only reason to do it the way they are is to make 110 viable. And if you have to do 110 I guess it's a good option.
Click to expand...

Just to clear things up... I am looking at the 16ton+ (they have two different 16ton presses) and it appears that the 16ton actually does use 220v. Could you look at the specs and let me know if it''s worth it? I mean it's probably $2000 more than the uncle al's 24ton press. What would make it worth buying to me is if I could do some drawing on it similar to a power hammer. Also, the quick change dies are a really nice feature.
 
Or, do I go for the 25ton press that they offer for only $200 more? The 25ton runs at 2.5 IPS according to them.
 
I would ask them both:
  • Motor hp and rpm
  • Pump displacement high/low
  • Cylinder size
Without that you don't really know what you're getting but math doesn't lie, you can only turn X watts into so much work.

I've used the uncle Al press and it's comparable to mine in how fast it will work. I can't see how the coal iron can be without specs like I gave above.
 
Knight Owl Forge said:
Just to clear things up... I am looking at the 16ton+ (they have two different 16ton presses) and it appears that the 16ton actually does use 220v. Could you look at the specs and let me know if it''s worth it? I mean it's probably $2000 more than the uncle al's 24ton press. What would make it worth buying to me is if I could do some drawing on it similar to a power hammer. Also, the quick change dies are a really nice feature.
Click to expand...


You can draw with any decent press, up to a point. Without getting into insanely fast (aka, not something you are gonna be able to find "off the shelf" in knifemaker price ranges) ram speeds, there's always a limit, past a certain thickness, to how much you can practically work past, however, that's usually in the hand-forging range comfortably. Specialized drawing dies will get you a lot further than big long flat dies for this task. The extra speed for any of those dual stage pump presses isn't going to change these variables much unfortunately. The biggest "speed" loss with a dual stage, isn't so much how fast or slow it is in either stage, but the critical loss of heat you lose during the pressure change-over, as the pump encounters resistance. It's a fraction of a second, but it's a critical fraction, where it hesitates, sucking heat, and then goes slower, when you really need it to go faster.

Honestly, I'm not certain how much you'd gain from going twice as fast on a dual stage, the 16+ and the 25 share the same pump and motor setup presumably, the only difference being the cylinder size. I'd be curious to run them side-by-side. There's a limit when learning, to how much speed is advantageous. If you did get the 16+, you could always replace the pump later, if you found you needed more speed, and the 16+ will make it easier to change pumps and see gains there (smaller diameter cylinder), although not in tonnage.

It would be good to know what PSI they're running, and see what the cylinder is rated for relative to that also, if there's head-room, that's another potential upgrade for later.
 
It’s all just math and math does not lie. To give you an exzample my press is 10hp 3ph and puts out 7gpm into a 4.5” cylinder. I can max the pressure up to 3000psi but its A rather large motor. I designed it at 2500psi and 7gpm. The math is as fallows
HP=(PSIxGPM)/1714
Or PSI=(HP/GPM)/1714

This means at 13gpm that 5hp motor can only do 650psi. Then it switches to high pressure. If we assume say 2500psi that means the GPM drops to
GPM=(HP/PSI)x1714 which is 3.43gpm

This pumped into a 4” cylinder will generate 16 tons at a speed of 1” a sec and free travel at 4” a sec. but your pump has losses so that number drops by X percentage which depends on the quality of pump thy install. The big thing with these duke stage pumps is the delay from low to high. If you watch that little video clip thy have on a loope on there page you can see the pause when the dies contact the billet. This is just the nature of the game. And that pause will suck heat out of the steel. How much I’m not sure but it’s the one reasion lots of us have switched to single staged pumps.
 
I’m looking at uncle al’s press too. What would be the benefits of going with a coal iron forge press over the uncle al’s press? Just speed? Are there any other options in the sub $5000 range? I’d really like to stay under $4000 if possible.

Also, does anyone know what shipping runs for one of these things? I would think around $200 for Freight.
 
I think coal iron has free shipping. But honestly I can’t see paying that kind of money for an off the shelf press. If you can weld decently or know some one that can you can build a press. You have to put some brain power into it to make sure it’s structuarly sound but thy are not rockets.
 
JTknives said:
I think coal iron has free shipping. But honestly I can’t see paying that kind of money for an off the shelf press. If you can weld decently or know some one that can you can build a press. You have to put some brain power into it to make sure it’s structuarly sound but thy are not rockets.
Click to expand...

It's worth mentioning; that there is a small book available, via the ABS; http://www.americanbladesmith.com/index.php?section=product&subsection=product_details&product_id=30

It doesn't cover single stage setups, this book is starting to get a bit long in the tooth, but nothing has changed fundamentally (other than the *recent* revelation that single stage lower tonnage presses will potentially outwork higher tonnage, dual stage setups(this revelation being new to smiths, not the hydraulics industry)) in the field of hydraulics. It has two, complete, separate, plans for hydraulic forging presses, a C-frame, and H-frame. Some part numbers aren't valid, but google searches will turn up replacements.

You can build a press equivalent to the ones you're considering buying, for potentially less than $1,000, if you have access to some fab equipment and the skill or friends that can utilize them, and a bit of thrifty shopping on steel.

Thousands of presses have been built in the community based on that book, even if you don't follow it specifically, it lays out the fundamentals you need to understand the concept. It's a large reason for the ubiquity of forging presses in our field.


Frankly, everyone considering even buying a press, without previous heavy industrial experience, should own a copy. It's easy to replace the pump and motor for a faster single stage setup, but I really don't recommend it, for a forging press novice, and keep in mind, that until 3 or 4 years ago, literally *everyone* in our industry built presses based on dual-stage pump designs, because it "seemed to make more sense", "on paper". It's easy to take for granted, but in theory, the change-over times from hi-lo pump stages are infinitesimal, but in reality, they're significant enough, with the low standard of quality of these pumps, to translate into significant losses of efficiency, however, this only really matters, if you have the skills, the infrastructure, and the necessity, to capitalize on it.
 
If I was to drop to 2000psi/16tons I could bump up in pump size to 10.5gpm which would give me 2.5”sec. but in all honesty I think there comes a point where to much speed becomes uncontrollable. I do like the balance of speed/tons I have in my press. I making a narrower set of flat dies to speed up the drawing process. My big dies right now have to much surface area once I get the billet worked down and it has full contact with the dies. That’s another reasion we are building a set of rolling mills.
 
kuraki said:
I would ask them both:
  • Motor hp and rpm
  • Pump displacement high/low
  • Cylinder size
Without that you don't really know what you're getting but math doesn't lie, you can only turn X watts into so much work.

I've used the uncle Al press and it's comparable to mine in how fast it will work. I can't see how the coal iron can be without specs like I gave above.
Click to expand...

Here is the info straight form Coal Ironworks:

16 - 2HP 110v 1PH 1750- 4" Cyl - LO .269 HI .112

16+ - 5HP 220v 1PH 3500- 4" Cyl - LO .6705 HI .2239

25 - 5HP 220v 1PH 3500- 5" Cyl - LO .6705 HI .2239
 
That 16+ is a loud son of a bitch I bet.
 
JTknives said:
That 16+ is a loud son of a bitch I bet.
Click to expand...
A guy posted a YouTube video of his and it sounded pretty obnoxiously loud. I’m not going to post a link to the video because his language was “colorful”, but if someone is curious I’m sure they could find it in a search.
 
Knight Owl Forge said:
Here is the info straight form Coal Ironworks:

16 - 2HP 110v 1PH 1750- 4" Cyl - LO .269 HI .112

16+ - 5HP 220v 1PH 3500- 4" Cyl - LO .6705 HI .2239

25 - 5HP 220v 1PH 3500- 5" Cyl - LO .6705 HI .2239
Click to expand...

I don't know how I screwed my math up the first time to get the pump displacement wrong but yeah, a 4" cylinder with an area of 12.566, pumping .269 ci per rev @ 1750 is 1.6 IPS. So .66 IPS in high pressure.

If I was going to buy any of them it'd be the 16+. The 25 uses the same pump and a larger cylinder. It's going to move slower and you may not be able to use the additional tonnage. I dunno for sure. Mine is basically splitting the difference between those two. Either would probably work fine but I wouldn't want the little 16.

JTknives said:
That 16+ is a loud son of a bitch I bet.
Click to expand...

I run mine 3600. It's loud but not unreasonable.
 
I would really think there would be more open source diy plans on the net. At least one or two. It would be nice to have a parts list to start chipping away at.

What do you guys think about using a log splitter as a base for a press?

I have a mig welder and am somewhat capable. My welds aren’t pretty, but they haven’t failed yet. I have a Lincoln 180 running flux core at the moment(I don’t have tanks to run shielding gas).
 
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