Lucky pawn shop find: Hen and Rooster Bertram

J

Javelin

Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
320
Best deal I've ever gotten:

Not sure if this is considered a whittler, but regardless this is pretty much the single best folding knife I've ever owned. It's nice. I'd consider it as flawless as possible in a production knife. Stag handles. My phone doesn't do it justice. I've heard that these Bertram Hen and Roosters are nice but I have a high opinion of H&R anyways. Was used slightly, oddly never sharpened, so i put an edge on it and carried it since. 30$.

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Its a beauty and its a whittler all right. Split back-spring as well. Not a true Bertram if it says Bertram on the tang as I was schooled by the master himself that owned the company. I will try to find the link for you.

This is the link to the thread i was referencing. I can't tell from your pics, but you may have a real C. Bertram, and at any rate its a wonderful find that I would be proud to own.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Rooster-knives?highlight=a.G.+Russell+Bertram
 
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Great score. That is why you have to make the stop and visit the pawn shops. Usually there is nothing, or there is something that is over priced. Every now and then, you find a gem like that. It is like one great golf shot that redeems all of the bad ones (for me anyways :-)). I do alot of driving for work, and if I have time between stops, I always stop at pawn shops.
 
All the pawn shops in my neck of the woods are horrible for any quality knives.
 
Nice knife, Javelin!

I have a Stag handled Hen & Rooster CM-6 from the A.G. Russell era that I've been carrying for a couple months. Made around 1976. It's about the size of a Peanut with a single blade. The overall design of the knife is rather unique and I absolutely love the shape of the blade. Superb little knife.

The attached photo is not my knife but mine is just like it. (I'm at work and this is the only pic I have here)

Good score, Javelin!
 
You have a Bertram Cutlery knife. The 'real' Hen & Rooster knives were marked "C. Bertram" or were marked with merchant names like "Guttman', "Voss", and others, and have not been made since 1980. The pre 1980 Bertram knives were made by cutlers schooled in the long established traditional hand built methods. The Bertram Cutlery knives are made using standard mass production methods.
It's easy to tell from your picture, and a good clue for ebay searching: Bertram knives never had a shield.
You have a decent knife, but it is not an original hand built Hen & Rooster.
roland
 
Ah ok, so not a Bertram. Doesn't change my opinion in the least, this is an awesome little knife :D

Question though: the steel seems stainless yet is clearly stained with very dark markings, can one stain a stainless steel through use somehow? or is this really a carbon steel knife?
 
Javelin.....Your knife is carbon steel and should have a "c" after the pattern number. It was made by Boker.
I agree with you that they are well made knives. Hard to go wrong at 30 bucks. Good find.

Tim
 
Tim, how do you know it is a Boker ? Does it match a Boker pattern exactly ?
When the new owners of the H & R trademark took over in 1980, they first contracted out to Kissing Crane. I don't know how many years this lasted but i do believe they did use other German manufacturers for a time after K.C. For some time now the vast majority of the H & R branded knives have been made in China. A few of the patterns with Stag were made in Spain but i don't know if they still are.
This is typical for all cutlery. Knives bear a brand name but which manufacturer any knife was made by remains a closely guarded secret. Even knives with brand names that are knife manufacturers are frequently contracted out.
I did not post to insult your excellent find. I find learning about knife companies and finding out who actually made what, to be a most interesting part of knife collecting. Forensic Knifeology is Phun, and, there is always more to learn.
roland
 
basser5 said:
Javelin.....Your knife is carbon steel and should have a "c" after the pattern number. It was made by Boker.
I agree with you that they are well made knives. Hard to go wrong at 30 bucks. Good find.

Tim
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"353C-DS" So I guess it is a carbon steel; yet the sheeps foot and pen blade are shiny and new where as the main blade seems to have a sort of patina or staining but in an irregular pattern.

rprocter said:
Tim, how do you know it is a Boker ? Does it match a Boker pattern exactly ?
When the new owners of the H & R trademark took over in 1980, they first contracted out to Kissing Crane. I don't know how many years this lasted but i do believe they did use other German manufacturers for a time after K.C. For some time now the vast majority of the H & R branded knives have been made in China. A few of the patterns with Stag were made in Spain but i don't know if they still are.
This is typical for all cutlery. Knives bear a brand name but which manufacturer any knife was made by remains a closely guarded secret. Even knives with brand names that are knife manufacturers are frequently contracted out.
I did not post to insult your excellent find. I find learning about knife companies and finding out who actually made what, to be a most interesting part of knife collecting. Forensic Knifeology is Phun, and, there is always more to learn.
roland
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Didn't take it as such! I was just stating my satisfaction with the knife regardless of its lesser rarity :)

EDIT: Its probably better that this isnt a real Bertram, I don't have any safe queens :D
 
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Hi Roland, To answer your question.. yes, Boker made the exact knife. Klaas has never made this pattern that i have seen.
Hen and Rooster International are made in China. I have seen no evidence that Bertam Cutlery has ever produced knives in China.
And yes several patterns including all the new fixed blades i believe are made in Spain.

Javelin...I see nothing wrong with their quality .I own some Bertam Cutlery coffin jacks that have outstanding fit and finish.
Tim
 
Tim, are Bertram Cutlery and Hen & Rooster International different divisions of the same business ? Does Bertram Cutlery still have some of it's folders made in Germany ? This is a question i have asked previously but received conflicting answers.
Unless there was also a later run of these, the Coffin Jack you posted is from the early-mid 1980's and was made in Germany.
thanks, roland
 
Great knife! The stag looks really nice, somekind of typical german stag, it seems.

@roland: Bertram knives does not longer exist. As much as I know, is Betram Hen & Rooster knives now made by Klaas Cuterly. Some of the post 1980 modells must have been made by Böker. This is what I could find in german spoken knife forum.

Kind regards
Andi
 
Tidy knife for sure and a nice pattern to carry.

This Hen certainly LOOKS like the Böker Germany one in carbon, although it wears its blades round the different way. The Bökers I have, sport the Cope blade on the mark side and Pen on pile, minor point I know. These Böker Whittlers are very nicely made inexpensive knives, rather overlooked in my view.. The Hen looks a well fashioned knife too.
 
I believe the cope blade is on the mark side of the OPs knife as well.

In a 1998 press release celebrating Klaas's 175 years. The company states that the KCs and H&Rs are still being produced by them.
The knives were being made in employees homes and materials shipped accordingly. Anthony Carter list 1998 as the final year of production
out of the original factory.1939-98.

Hen and Rooster International makes kitchen knives .......Same importer.

I haven't posted a coffin jack, but yes....mine was made in 1982 and marked Bertram Cutlery.
If i remember correctly, they were also made during C Bertram era and redesigned by AG Russell
by moving the blade to the opposite end.

Tim
 
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Tim, those Coffin Jacks have a unique history. The originals were designed by AGR and made in the C. Bertram 'factory' while AGR owned the business. Years later AG found out that one of the Bertram family members who still worked there had been swiping the parts and having them assembled elsewhere. The third source of these came in the first few years of Bertram Cutlery (early 1980's) presumably from assembling whatever parts were still there.. This history was related by AG himself somewhere here in BF a few years ago.
roland
 
Roland thanks for that post. I will have to see if i can locate it.

Javelin, put an edge on that puppy and let us know how it holds up!

Tim
 
rprocter said:
Tim, are Bertram Cutlery and Hen & Rooster International different divisions of the same business ? Does Bertram Cutlery still have some of it's folders made in Germany ? This is a question i have asked previously but received conflicting answers.
Unless there was also a later run of these, the Coffin Jack you posted is from the early-mid 1980's and was made in Germany.
thanks, roland
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The Hen & Rooster/Bertram brand is the top brand of the Jim Frost line. They are better made and worth the price he charges for them.
 
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