"Made in Sheffield" 1830-1930, A golden age ?

[Blake the Blade]

Bought this beautiful, pocket worn stag congress knife at an antique shop recently for absolutely no money. It shows the wear of time and use on its blades and scales but remains completely snappy, intact and usable. Interestingly three of its blade are stamped G. Butler & Co and have the key tang stamp, yet the nail file has the familiar star and cross stamp and the 6 Norfolk St address of Joseph Rodgers.
124207688_361824471574177_5026383772005780433_n by Mark Saunders, on Flickr124223338_653123782261529_6583728464696934689_n by Mark Saunders, on Flickr

 

[Jack Black]

Bought this beautiful, pocket worn stag congress knife at an antique shop recently for absolutely no money. It shows the wear of time and use on its blades and scales but remains completely snappy, intact and usable. Interestingly three of its blade are stamped G. Butler & Co and have the key tang stamp, yet the nail file has the familiar star and cross stamp and the 6 Norfolk St address of Joseph Rodgers.
124207688_361824471574177_5026383772005780433_n by Mark Saunders, on Flickr124223338_653123782261529_6583728464696934689_n by Mark Saunders, on Flickr

Nice piece my friend As you know, because of the Little Mester system, it's quite common to find old Sheffield knives with mixed tang-stamps. Your knife reminded of this old IXL Tobacco Knife I should really have better photos of

 

[Blake the Blade]

Nice piece my friend As you know, because of the Little Mester system, it's quite common to find old Sheffield knives with mixed tang-stamps. Your knife reminded of this old IXL Tobacco Knife I should really have better photos of

Yep very similar indeed. Lovely knives these Jack, so pleased to have found an old example. This interplay between Cutlers in sheffield at the time is very interesting. Mark.

 

[Jack Black]

Yep very similar indeed. Lovely knives these Jack, so pleased to have found an old example. This interplay between Cutlers in sheffield at the time is very interesting. Mark.

Most Little Mesters worked for lots of different firms. It was like that until recent times. There are still a few jobbing cutlers, even today

 

[danno50]

Spent the last couple wks reading through this thread when time allowed.
Great amount of info/pictures. With the exception of the now deleted britishblades site this has to be the best resource for vintage Sheffield folders I've found since.

Could I ask the collective regarding dates for the following?

Ed, I think your post, being the last one on a page, may have been missed. I don't think I am part of the collective, more like on the fringe. However, a couple of thoughts on dating your knives. There is a member over on AAPK who believes that the OIL THE JOINTS stamp was used by Wostenholm between 1930 and 1970. I have absolutely no idea if this is accurate or not? Hoping more knowledgable members will comment on that. On pages 91 to 93, of this thread, there is quite a bit of information about Firth stainless steel. Perhaps you can get some idea of the age of your second knife from there?

Lovely old congress knives, Blake and Jack.

 

[ed_is_dead]

Spent the last couple wks reading through this thread when time allowed.
Great amount of info/pictures. With the exception of the now deleted britishblades site this has to be the best resource for vintage Sheffield folders I've found since.

Could I ask the collective regarding dates for the following?

Ed, I think your post, being the last one on a page, may have been missed. I don't think I am part of the collective, more like on the fringe. However, a couple of thoughts on dating your knives. There is a member over on AAPK who believes that the OIL THE JOINTS stamp was used by Wostenholm between 1930 and 1970. I have absolutely no idea if this is accurate or not? Hoping more knowledgable members will comment on that. On pages 91 to 93, of this thread, there is quite a bit of information about Firth stainless steel. Perhaps you can get some idea of the age of your second knife from there?

Lovely old congress knives, Blake and Jack.

Danno 50, thanks for the insights. I read Jack Blacks posts surrounding the discovery of high chromium low carbon stainless by Brearley and Firths behaviour thereafter.
My horn handled Firth example may be getting on towards a hundred yrs old perhaps?
Its like new (this is almost to it's deficit imo) but is a lovely knife to use. Predictably it is harder to sharpen than its counterpart. I have a rare and quite special George Ibberson signed example in Firth stainless also and both hold good edges.

While I'm here I might seek the collectives thoughts on the following Wade Wingfield and Rowbotham two blade that I posted over here...
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...nals-of-course.1167349/page-750#post-20131800
Here are some more shots....

















It's a large piece and took more work than most to sharpen as the steel is harder than say that on my Wostenholms but even the main blade can easily whittle hairs now.
The build quality is very nice to my untrained eye. The "back square" as I understand its called is nicely finished with rounded edges and the walk and talk is impressive. At some point an industrious sort gave the pivot pin a hit with a punch to no doubt take up some slop. Despite the mark the w&t is great and no wobble either.
If any of you can date this I'd be happy. WWR seem to be hard to date as the knife looks like 1930's to me but Goins has Wade as previous century!

 

[Jack Black]

Apologies for missing this until now

Spent the last couple wks reading through this thread when time allowed.
Great amount of info/pictures. With the exception of the now deleted britishblades site this has to be the best resource for vintage Sheffield folders I've found since.

Could I ask the collective regarding dates for the following?

Two nice knives Ed I have 3 examples of that IXL Serpentine Jack, so it was perhaps made over a lengthy period, but it appears in Wostenholm catalogues from the 1930's. The other knife is also from the 30's I believe

Lovely old congress knives, Blake and Jack.

Sincere thanks my friend, been neglecting this thread I'm afraid

While I'm here I might seek the collectives thoughts on the following Wade Wingfield and Rowbotham two blade that I posted over here...
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...nals-of-course.1167349/page-750#post-20131800
Here are some more shots....

















It's a large piece and took more work than most to sharpen as the steel is harder than say that on my Wostenholms but even the main blade can easily whittle hairs now.
The build quality is very nice to my untrained eye. The "back square" as I understand its called is nicely finished with rounded edges and the walk and talk is impressive. At some point an industrious sort gave the pivot pin a hit with a punch to no doubt take up some slop. Despite the mark the w&t is great and no wobble either.
If any of you can date this I'd be happy. WWR seem to be hard to date as the knife looks like 1930's to me but Goins has Wade as previous century!

A lovely piece, with great 'Clean and Square' (or 'Square and Clean') joints. I have the exact same ruler in my desk drawer here beside me!

Wingfield, Rowbotham & Company were supposedly founded in 1751, but first listed in 1797, as Rowbotham Wingfield. In the early 19th century, the firm was Hoult, Rowbotham & Wingfield. Later, Richard Wade became a partner. He was the brother of Robert Wade of Wade & Butcher. After 1818, when Hoult withdrew, the company was run by Rowbotham, Wingfield, and Wade. Wade had retired by the middle of the 19th century, dying in 1867. By the end of the 19th century, the business was losing money, and the name and marks (including a silver mark) were acquired by Thomas Turner, who used the Wingfield, Rowbotham name in the 1920's. It seems that your knife may be somewhat older than it appears, though, as always with Sheffield knives, there can be anomalies, older blades, or an older stamp, may have been used later for example. Based on the history of the company though, you have a knife from the mid 19th century

 

[ed_is_dead]

Apologies for missing this until now



Two nice knives Ed I have 3 examples of that IXL Serpentine Jack, so it was perhaps made over a lengthy period, but it appears in Wostenholm catalogues from the 1930's. The other knife is also from the 30's I believe



Sincere thanks my friend, been neglecting this thread I'm afraid



A lovely piece, with great 'Clean and Square' (or 'Square and Clean') joints. I have the exact same ruler in my desk drawer here beside me!

Wingfield, Rowbotham & Company were supposedly founded in 1751, but first listed in 1797, as Rowbotham Wingfield. In the early 19th century, the firm was Hoult, Rowbotham & Wingfield. Later, Richard Wade became a partner. He was the brother of Robert Wade of Wade & Butcher. After 1818, when Hoult withdrew, the company was run by Rowbotham, Wingfield, and Wade. Wade had retired by the middle of the 19th century, dying in 1867. By the end of the 19th century, the business was losing money, and the name and marks (including a silver mark) were acquired by Thomas Turner, who used the Wingfield, Rowbotham name in the 1920's. It seems that your knife may be somewhat older than it appears, though, as always with Sheffield knives, there can be anomalies, older blades, or an older stamp, may have been used later for example. Based on the history of the company though, you have a knife from the mid 19th century

Cannot thank you enough for that Jack. I had hit a red brick wall with my digging online researching this.
It almost pleases me Google cannot supply all the info, and that good old fashioned books and gents like yourself with years of knowledge are the key.

The two blade serpentine Jack is such a classy item. Would love to see yours and like you I have two, probably my favourite pattern, something about the parallel blades in that curved body.

The WWR is quite the sleeper so! Amazing to read that it may indeed be 150 plus odd years old, or should that be young as its still doing what it was designed and built to, at least now it's edged. Even the better half (who puts the good kitchen knives in the dishwasher ) admired it as being "a handsome old thing".
Armed with your definition of "square and clean joints" Google belched up you're own very thread on the matter
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/clean-square-joints.1221102/
Factinating the craftsmanship put into making them. I did not know the name of them but appreciated the engineering and execution on mine and photographed the back end on the stops.

I realise Im waffling on but while I have you I'd like to show you the Ibberson (lobster?)

As a history buff who happened to chance upon this and researched the signature my jaw hit the floor. https://www.manuscripts.co.uk/stock/5183.HTM
An interesting chap with an at times acrimonious relationship with Winston due to his socialist leanings. A wonderful item on many levels, at least to me and perhaps yourself.

 

[danno50]

Beautiful horn on you Wade Wingfield and Robotham, Ed. The Ibberson sterling lobster is a very lovely knife.

 

[Campbellclanman]

I agree with our friend Dan. That Ibberson is a Sweetheart. Bu the way of chance are there any initials inside the liners if this lovely Lobster?

 

[ed_is_dead]

Beautiful horn on you Wade Wingfield and Robotham, Ed. The Ibberson sterling lobster is a very lovely knife.

Thanks Dann, I gave the handle a rub of a finger with a smidge of smurf poo (polish) to bring out the debth and a little shine. I did file the base of the blades edge by the tang to restore some of the original profile, maybe a mm or so, surprisingly hard steel in comparison to my other carbon blades.
Here it was as I received it https://ibb.co/KKhm83r
I like Ibberson lobster too, it's put together so nicely and functions as it should still today.

I agree with our friend Dan. That Ibberson is a Sweetheart. Bu the way of chance are there any initials inside the liners if this lovely Lobster?

Campbell, there appears to be an "IX" (or reverse depending on your pov) in the liner next to the main blade? Here's a pic

I'm not sure if this is note worthy or just some kind of assembly reference? From reading on this I assume you're looking for a makers initials?
The silver "E" stamp (as far as I can tell) indicates a date of 1947 which would pre date Stan Shaw I'm guessing as he was roughly 17 at that point? The '47 date pans out as AV Alexander was awarded an honorary Freeman of Sheffield 1st Oct 1947 and most likely was gifted this at that ceremony.
All of my research is very amateur so feel free to correct/inform.

 

[Jack Black]

Cannot thank you enough for that Jack. I had hit a red brick wall with my digging online researching this.
It almost pleases me Google cannot supply all the info, and that good old fashioned books and gents like yourself with years of knowledge are the key.

The two blade serpentine Jack is such a classy item. Would love to see yours and like you I have two, probably my favourite pattern, something about the parallel blades in that curved body.

The WWR is quite the sleeper so! Amazing to read that it may indeed be 150 plus odd years old, or should that be young as its still doing what it was designed and built to, at least now it's edged. Even the better half (who puts the good kitchen knives in the dishwasher ) admired it as being "a handsome old thing".
Armed with your definition of "square and clean joints" Google belched up you're own very thread on the matter
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/clean-square-joints.1221102/
Factinating the craftsmanship put into making them. I did not know the name of them but appreciated the engineering and execution on mine and photographed the back end on the stops.

I realise Im waffling on but while I have you I'd like to show you the Ibberson (lobster?)

As a history buff who happened to chance upon this and researched the signature my jaw hit the floor. https://www.manuscripts.co.uk/stock/5183.HTM
An interesting chap with an at times acrimonious relationship with Winston due to his socialist leanings. A wonderful item on many levels, at least to me and perhaps yourself.

A pleasure The Serpentine Jack is also one of my favourite patterns. Here are my three IXLs

I also found this one, with the blades almost gone. I was visiting a small village years ago, and asked the owner of a small antiques shop if he ever had any penknives in. He said that he had a couple in his garage, and would find them out for me. A month later, I travelled there again, but he still had not got round to finding the knives. On my third visit, he produced two knives, of which this was the best. I only bought them because I felt sorry for him, but he probably saw me coming

Here's another Serpentine pattern, from the same period

What a beautiful Lobster, and a fascinating piece of history. As I'm sure you know, the crest is that of the City of Sheffield, and I would think that such a prestigious knife would have been made by Ibberson's top cutler, Ted Osborne. It looks like it was made by him too

Even in 1947, the Company of Cutlers in Hallamshire had very few 'cutlers' in its ranks, and even those would have been factory-owners. It is comprised of local bigwigs and 'Captains of Industry', and every year they have a very grand feast. Often, the gentlemen will sit down to find a fine penknife placed before them, marking some great event or a grand individual, such as the Master Cutler or a member of the Royal Family. These were generally made by Ibberson's, and later by Stan Shaw. So, it's possible that your knife is one of a series of knives, but I only raise this as a possibility (the crest is the Sheffield crest, not that of the Company of Cutlers)

Campbell, there appears to be an "IX" (or reverse depending on your pov) in the liner next to the main blade? Here's a pic

I'm not sure if this is note worthy or just some kind of assembly reference? From reading on this I assume you're looking for a makers initials?
The silver "E" stamp (as far as I can tell) indicates a date of 1947 which would pre date Stan Shaw I'm guessing as he was roughly 17 at that point? The '47 date pans out as AV Alexander was awarded an honorary Freeman of Sheffield 1st Oct 1947 and most likely was gifted this at that ceremony.
All of my research is very amateur so feel free to correct/inform.

Prior to cutlers marking the parts with their initials, the parts were marked with numbers, nown as 'tool numbers', assigned to each worker by the management

 

[ed_is_dead]

A pleasure The Serpentine Jack is also one of my favourite patterns. Here are my three IXLs

I also found this one, with the blades almost gone. I was visiting a small village years ago, and asked the owner of a small antiques shop if he ever had any penknives in. He said that he had a couple in his garage, and would find them out for me. A month later, I travelled there again, but he still had not got round to finding the knives. On my third visit, he produced two knives, of which this was the best. I only bought them because I felt sorry for him, but he probably saw me coming

Here's another Serpentine pattern, from the same period

What a beautiful Lobster, and a fascinating piece of history. As I'm sure you know, the crest is that of the City of Sheffield, and I would think that such a prestigious knife would have been made by Ibberson's top cutler, Ted Osborne. It looks like it was made by him too

Even in 1947, the Company of Cutlers in Hallamshire had very few 'cutlers' in its ranks, and even those would have been factory-owners. It is comprised of local bigwigs and 'Captains of Industry', and every year they have a very grand feast. Often, the gentlemen will sit down to find a fine penknife placed before them, marking some great event or a grand individual, such as the Master Cutler or a member of the Royal Family. These were generally made by Ibberson's, and later by Stan Shaw. So, it's possible that your knife is one of a series of knives, but I only raise this as a possibility (the crest is the Sheffield crest, not that of the Company of Cutlers)



Prior to cutlers marking the parts with their initials, the parts were marked with numbers, nown as 'tool numbers', assigned to each worker by the management

Jack I'm really liking your I*XL examples there. Finding one with good snaps, no wobble and crucially full length blades is no mean feat. Last one I bought had a very weak pull on the main and negligible snap
Weirdly I have a thing about the long pull meeting the swedge, in my mind it shouldn't for some reason! Must be my ocd Is the long pull formed by pressing a die when the steel is hot or ground in do you know?
What handle material is the first one? Blades are perfect!
The different serpentine example you posted is timely, I have one on the way to me but in far rougher condition. I will put a toothy edge on it and use the heck out of it.

I don't use the Ibberson lobster which is a shame but I'd hate to lose it, likewise my humble GEC collection. Besides I greatly enjoy carrying and using something with age and character like the above.
I have seen other examples of Ibberson signed Lobsters given to "Noteworthy people"
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/705483776/1930-rare-george-ibberson-co-sterling
I think the above is William Hart, prominent lawyer and Town Clerk in Sheffield. This is stamped 1930 which is either when he was Knighted or retired and presented this I reckon. Records differ with two sources contradicting but either way 1930 was a biggie for Mr Hart.
I ant figure out this one unfortunately...
https://regencysilver.com/listing/680680620/rare-george-ibberson-sheffield
Any ideas?
There was a chap on britishblades a good few yrs back who had several of these and when I approached him about the Alexander one he had found a reference to it being awarded to him at a ceremony when he got the keys to the city in October 47. It was in a Sheffield governmental records book of some kind that recorded noteworthy events with as you say "Captains of Industry" and dignitaries. Again, google falls short here.

Factinating you can see build characteristics of Ted Osborne. That's experience and knowledge there! The fit and finish is lovely. I must search for images of his work.
The main blade has clearence to the two smaller blades despite the small size, quite an accomplishment. Everything snaps and fits well. If I were the recipient I'd be happy

This was in the pocket today and I'd love to hear any info you have on it. Google says he was a lively character who played loose and fast.... and paid the price. I wanted one because of this
Incidentally this, of all my vintage knives takes the keenest edge. I have a spyderco with super blue steel which gets amazingly sharp but this takes a keener edge!
Thanks a mill for all the info Jack.

 

[ed_is_dead]

My two new Wostenholms next to the "big" Serpentine Jack for scale.
The little guy has seen some use! The other is as new bar somone having polished it. I love that holds such a big blade in a small body. Both are razors now.
Jack is the smallest Jack the same size as the one shown resting on the IXL pamphlet?
Mine is just under 3".

 

[herder]

My two new Wostenholms next to the "big" Serpentine Jack for scale.
The little guy has seen some use! The other is as new bar somone having polished it. I love that holds such a big blade in a small body. Both are razors now.
Jack is the smallest Jack the same size as the one shown resting on the IXL pamphlet?
Mine is just under 3".

Those three particular models were first offered by Wostenholm in the 1920s, and ran in similar form up until the early 1980s.
Enclosed is a catalog illustration from the 1920s.

View attachment 1459419

 

[ed_is_dead]

Those three particular models were first offered by Wostenholm in the 1920s, and ran in similar form up until the early 1980s.
Enclosed is a catalog illustration from the 1920s.

View attachment 1459419

Fantastic, I must find more referencing material like that.
So the top one B181 is mine but in pearl and the B185 my small fella.
Cheers for that, I love the very pocketable nature of them.

 

[Jack Black]

My two new Wostenholms next to the "big" Serpentine Jack for scale.
The little guy has seen some use! The other is as new bar somone having polished it. I love that holds such a big blade in a small body. Both are razors now.
Jack is the smallest Jack the same size as the one shown resting on the IXL pamphlet?
Mine is just under 3".

Nice finds Yes, that's the same size

Those three particular models were first offered by Wostenholm in the 1920s, and ran in similar form up until the early 1980s.
Enclosed is a catalog illustration from the 1920s.

View attachment 1459419

Cool info and catalogue pics my friend

 

[kwackster]

Flockton, Tompkin & Co 2-blade small knife with MOP scales.
Made in Sheffield and complete with original leather pocket pouch.
The knife was bought new around 1920 in Amsterdam, and it's still in very good condition.





















Specs:

Length opened (with larger blade): 12,1 cm
Length opened (with smaller blade): 10,8 cm
Length closed: 7,5 cm
Weight: 15 grams

 

[ed_is_dead]

A new small arrival for me that I thought I might share here.








Armed with Jack's information on Wade Wingfield and Rowbotham I sought out a buddy for my big two blade Jack.
Only thing I can't figure is the date in respect of the lack of the trademark winged harp and the inclusion of the tang stamp of their address at No 82 Tenter Street.
Really like the manicure nail file which is useful and appears to have a coarse and fine file on opposite sides. The blade is nicely swedged, it's holding its edge and the stag appeals to me.

Ps: being an inquisitive type, and never having been to Sheffield, I couldn't help but have a gander at how it's birthplace looks 150(?) years later....

The only certainty in life is change!

 

[danno50]

Lovely pen knife, Ed. I have been enjoying your posts in the old knives thread and was wondering when you might restart this Sheffield thread.