Made my first ever habaki... and it disintergrated (sniff)

T

Tset Tsyung

Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
24
Hey all,

I finally got round to try some ACTUAL forging in the shaping of forging a Habakai for a file that I've made into a Tanto (stock removal method).

I forged the Habaki, went to weld in the Machi Gane using plumber solder... and when it had cooled this had happened:
P1040259.jpg


Just to give some info on my method, this is plain copper that I cold forged into shape - the Habaki was also put to the belt sander to get the nice smoother shape. I used a plumbers solder and flux from Screwfix. The thought occurs to me that maybe the flux was a bad idea? Perhaps as that burned off (I wasn't too sure how hot I was supposed to get the habakai and machi gane) it ate through the copper?

Here you can see that a blob of SOMETHING appeared - and I have no idea how it got there...
P1040260.jpg


Was, perhaps, the shape wrong? Was I supposed to do the final shaping AFTER the welding?
P1040263.jpg


I wish to state that I have never welded anything in this manner before, and I'm still learning the basics of forging and the metallurgy involved and blade making. So any advice would be greatly appreciated.

For the record, even though I'm totally bummed out (especially as it took me weeks to get round to doing this...) I'm not giving up....

Again, any help would be AWESOME!
 
I'm not sure what links you are trying to post, but those seem unsafe to me.

Your photos are too small to see much detail, but a few things come to mind.
First, welding heat and plumbers solder are not going to work together. Welding and brazing on copper are done at 1200F to 1600F, depending on what you need to do. Plumbers solder melts at 200-400F. If you heat it up to brazing heat, it will amalgamate with the copper and make an ugly blobby mess. the piece is ruined if that is what you did.

You want to be using what is called HARD silver solder or sometimes called Silver Brazing wire. You need hard soldering flux, which is also different from plumbers flux. The best solder type for doing copper fittings is the EASY grade of hard silver solder ( also called 60%). It tarnishes yellow and matches the copper well. Heat the metals to be soldered to about 500F and apply the flux. Heat to about 1000F and apply the solder/brazing metal. Continue heating a bit more until the solder melts and flows. Remove heat once it flows. BTW, you don't need much solder to make a joint if the parts fit well.
 
Hi Stacy,

Thank you for your reply. The links are to the original images hosted on postimg.com. The images inserted in the text are URL'd directly from those links. I understand if you're wary of these types of external links. Is there another site/service you recommend using for future reference?

As for the information about the flux and solder... after reading it it does seem that the disintegration of the Habaki was likely caused by a combination of these plumbers materials being used at a temperature WELL out of their recommended usage range (I didn't realise they were to be used at such lower temperatures - ya live and learn). Oh well, I'll sell them to a plumber friend of mine, sure he'll have a use for them ;)

I will definitely buy those other products that you mentioned and try using them. Will research how to check the temps.

One important question though... at 500F/260C won't they start to oxidise already? If so, won't the flux be pointless at this point and the weld not take? Please note, I'm not questioning your wisdom/experience, just asking so that I can understand.

Again, many thanks for the reply!!!
 
.......at 500F/260C won't they start to oxidize already.....

That is why you apply the flux. It cleans the oxides and coats the area with dried flux to make an oxygen barrier. You can put the flux on the cold joint, and I often put a small amount on to start with.... but you have to apply it again anyway at a point that is just hot enough to quickly boil it off and clean the joint. My normal copper flux is Battern's self pickling flux.
 
THANK YOU STACYYYYY!!!! [He shouts in sheer joy and gratitude]

That's brilliant! Now I can buy this stuff and have another bash at it. Thank you so much, I'm no longer bummed out by this ;)

Somebody recommended perhaps taking a very basic jewelry making/welding class to get to grips with some of the basics, so may look into that as well. Again, many thanks for the help Stacy XD
 
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