Magnacut from Bestech?

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SeabassSarmale

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Questions for anyone interested in answering, what does Bestech normally heat treat their Magnacut to? Optimal value would be 62.5, but we all know that isn't always the case.
 
From most makers who use them as an OEM its between 62-63. Most times these days I feel more impressed with Bestech vs Reate as an OEM.
 
raidzx said:
From most makers who use them as an OEM its between 62-63. Most times these days I feel more impressed with Bestech vs Reate as an OEM.
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Thanks! Recently purchased a knife that uses Bestech Magnacut, just wanted to make sure that I'm not getting some steel under 60 or something!
 
nsm said:
MagnaCut is not available in Asia at this time so they are getting it through unauthorized channels. Bestech is violating Crucible's trademark.
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There was recently some controversy about this but AFAIK, they are using genuine MagnaCut. Meanwhile, Kizer is using S45VN and I thought that also wasn't supposed to be sold to Chinese companies.

I'm not sure I understand the trademark issue. These companies bought the steels. They are using these steels to make knives. These companies are in the habit of stamping the identity of the steel they used on the blade. Is that the problem? I'm no lawyer but according to the United States Patent and Trademark Office:

"Trademark infringement is the unauthorized use of a trademark or service mark on or in connection with goods and/or services in a manner that is likely to cause confusion, deception, or mistake about the source of the goods and/or services."
 
Chronovore said:
There was recently some controversy about this but AFAIK, they are using genuine MagnaCut. Meanwhile, Kizer is using S45VN and I thought that also wasn't supposed to be sold to Chinese companies.

I'm not sure I understand the trademark issue. These companies bought the steels. They are using these steels to make knives. These companies are in the habit of stamping the identity of the steel they used on the blade. Is that the problem? I'm no lawyer but according to the United States Patent and Trademark Office:

"Trademark infringement is the unauthorized use of a trademark or service mark on or in connection with goods and/or services in a manner that is likely to cause confusion, deception, or mistake about the source of the goods and/or services."
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It’s great that you put the issue in bold. Chinese makers are known for misrepresenting the steel they use.
 
Chronovore said:
There was recently some controversy about this but AFAIK, they are using genuine MagnaCut. Meanwhile, Kizer is using S45VN and I thought that also wasn't supposed to be sold to Chinese companies.

I'm not sure I understand the trademark issue. These companies bought the steels. They are using these steels to make knives. These companies are in the habit of stamping the identity of the steel they used on the blade. Is that the problem? I'm no lawyer but according to the United States Patent and Trademark Office:

"Trademark infringement is the unauthorized use of a trademark or service mark on or in connection with goods and/or services in a manner that is likely to cause confusion, deception, or mistake about the source of the goods and/or services."
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The situation seems to be primarily "They aren't supposed to have it, or be offering knives in it". If that's the case, then it would be entirely within the rights of the providers like NSM to track down which of their direct customers is violating this rule and cutting them off. Bestech is not known for lying about the steel composition of their knives, so what appears to have happened is that they found a middleman who's fine with making extra money to violate an agreement.
 
Apparently Artisan Cutlery just introduced its Revel model in Magnacut. I'm guessing this is also not sanctioned by Crucible?
 
Bestech, Reate, Artisan, and Maxace all have MagnaCut in their lineups. I’m curious if there’s any legal action Crucible can take, but for now I don’t feel like buying any MagnaCut from those manufacturers. I have nothing against Chinese made knives, and own a few from said manufacturers, but owning a knife that’s a legal gray area is a little beyond me.

I am curious though, for those who know more of the situation than I do, what is the legal issue with Chinese companies buying MagmaCut? Was there an export ban put in place by Crucible? How much can that even be regulated?
 
There is the doctrine of "exhaustion" in patent, design and trademark law: A buyer of protected goods may sell those goods to a third party without infringing the right in question.

Exhaustion of intellectual property rights - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Of course, it is conceivable that the conditions under which the product was sold in the first place exclude the sale to certain territories or entities, etc. Then it gets tricky.
 
DMG said:
It’s great that you put the issue in bold. Chinese makers are known for misrepresenting the steel they use.
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That's misleading as a blanket statement. Sure, there are plenty of shady companies based in China selling shady knives on AliExpress, etc.. However, big-name brands such as Bestech, Kizer, Reate, WE, Kubey, and more are not known for this and have a good reputation in the knife commuity. (That's not even counting the other Chinese makers trusted to make product for Spyderco, Kershaw, etc..)

Leo Greer said:
... but owning a knife that’s a legal gray area is a little beyond me.

I am curious though, for those who know more of the situation than I do, what is the legal issue with Chinese companies buying MagmaCut? Was there an export ban put in place by Crucible? How much can that even be regulated?
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That seems to be the question. Is this actually a "legal gray area"? 🤷‍♂️

Quiet said:
The situation seems to be primarily "They aren't supposed to have it, or be offering knives in it". If that's the case, then it would be entirely within the rights of the providers like NSM to track down which of their direct customers is violating this rule and cutting them off. Bestech is not known for lying about the steel composition of their knives, so what appears to have happened is that they found a middleman who's fine with making extra money to violate an agreement.
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Okay but is "they aren't supposed to have it, or be offering knives in it" something Crucible can reasonably mandate once the steel has left their possession? It sounds more like "don't sell this stuff to companies in China" is between Crucible and those middlemen who purchase and distribute the steel. If that is a condition of the purchase agreement for MagnaCut or S45VN, then I suppose Crucible could either stop doing business with those distributors or pursue legal remedies against them. If successful, I suppose these models in MagnaCut and S45VN will be in limited supply...
 
Chronovore said:
That's misleading as a blanket statement. Sure, there are plenty of shady companies based in China selling shady knives on AliExpress, etc.. However, big-name brands such as Bestech, Kizer, Reate, WE, Kubey, and more are not known for this and have a good reputation in the knife commuity. (That's not even counting the other Chinese makers trusted to make product for Spyderco, Kershaw, etc..)



That seems to be the question. Is this actually a "legal gray area"? 🤷‍♂️



Okay but is "they aren't supposed to have it, or be offering knives in it" something Crucible can reasonably mandate once the steel has left their possession? It sounds more like "don't sell this stuff to companies in China" is between Crucible and those middlemen who purchase and distribute the steel. If that is a condition of the purchase agreement for MagnaCut or S45VN, then I suppose Crucible could either stop doing business with those distributors or pursue legal remedies against them. If successful, I suppose these models in MagnaCut and S45VN will be in limited supply...
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You beat me to it
 
Chronovore said:
Okay but is "they aren't supposed to have it, or be offering knives in it" something Crucible can reasonably mandate once the steel has left their possession? It sounds more like "don't sell this stuff to companies in China" is between Crucible and those middlemen who purchase and distribute the steel. If that is a condition of the purchase agreement for MagnaCut or S45VN, then I suppose Crucible could either stop doing business with those distributors or pursue legal remedies against them. If successful, I suppose these models in MagnaCut and S45VN will be in limited supply...
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I can't answer the question, as I have not entered into any contracts with NSM and haven't seen any attendant language. In any case, NSM themselves responded above and made it clear that companies in China aren't supposed to be selling knives made in this steel, that seems pretty clearcut. For what it's worth, it would seem entirely plausible that if NSM finds out who allowed Bestech to get their hands on that steel, they could find themselves unable to obtain more.

Hope it was worth it.
 
At the very least it is bad form, and by definition it's shady. Personally I think it's tacky and kinda gross. I wonder if reviewers will be too busy making content with them to get all up in arms about "the community" 🤔
 
Knives&Lint said:
At the very least it is bad form, and by definition it's shady. Personally I think it's tacky and kinda gross. I wonder if reviewers will be too busy making content with them to get all up in arms about "the community" 🤔
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On whose part? I mean, if you ran a Chinese company and you could buy the hot new steel from your supplier, you wouldn't?
 
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