I would like to purchase a gun safe and place it on oak hardwood floors on the first floor. My home is built on a crawl space (wood joist). Does anyone how to determine the maximum gun safe weight the floor can withstand, without damaging the floor or subflooring?
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Max. weight for Gun Safe in home
- Thread starter razcob
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That's a good question, I think I'd go to a mom and pops hardware store and ask them or Lowes/Home Depot and find an experienced "old timer" in there. These safes are heavy. How much does it weigh?
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I've got a handbook for residential framing, and the appendix listing the size joists used for different spans calls for a 30 lbs/sq ft live load in sleeping rooms and attic floors, and a 40 lbs/sq ft live load in all rooms except sleeping rooms and attic floors. Thats under a listing for southern pine floor joists, I would guess that the load levels are the same for other types of construction also, its just the joist size that changes.
So it sounds like you'd probably be safe for up to 40lbs/sq ft. It would be better if you kept it close to the end of the joists as opposed to the middle of their span. IE near a wall over the foundation, or overtop a beam if there is one running cross wise under your house. Chances are you wouldn't be putting it in the middle of a room anyway, so you should be in good shape.
Seeing as how you only have a crawl space underneath (assuming you can get into it) it wouldn't be all that hard to brace up the floor underneath where you want to put the safe too.
So it sounds like you'd probably be safe for up to 40lbs/sq ft. It would be better if you kept it close to the end of the joists as opposed to the middle of their span. IE near a wall over the foundation, or overtop a beam if there is one running cross wise under your house. Chances are you wouldn't be putting it in the middle of a room anyway, so you should be in good shape.
Seeing as how you only have a crawl space underneath (assuming you can get into it) it wouldn't be all that hard to brace up the floor underneath where you want to put the safe too.
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Yep floors are designed for 40 PSF loads. (Except bedrooms) But if you can put the safe over a beam and/or add bracing it will help support the weight.
A safe that is 2 feet x 4 feet has a 8 sqft footprint 8 X 40 = 320 pounds. You can over load a floor quickly if you're not careful.
A safe that is 2 feet x 4 feet has a 8 sqft footprint 8 X 40 = 320 pounds. You can over load a floor quickly if you're not careful.
Place it close to an exterior wall or structural interior wall. Put it across major floor beams if possible. The aquarium people can help you with this too. A show tank can weigh 2,000 pounds when loaded but, that is generally with a 6 foot run.
Each of my gun safes weigh 2,000 pounds empty. Plate steel and fire rock add the pounds easily. If you are looking at a standard 14 gauge steel model with a thick door, your weight will be considerably less. Keep in mind though, that if you put gold or lead in it, the weight of the contents can easily exceed the weight of the safe itself.
What sort of gun safe are you looking at? One to resist kids? One to resist a smash and grab? One to resist a limited targeted attack (drills, sledge hammers, chisels)? One to be a tougher target? Does it need to resist charring paper in a house fire?
Each of my gun safes weigh 2,000 pounds empty. Plate steel and fire rock add the pounds easily. If you are looking at a standard 14 gauge steel model with a thick door, your weight will be considerably less. Keep in mind though, that if you put gold or lead in it, the weight of the contents can easily exceed the weight of the safe itself.
What sort of gun safe are you looking at? One to resist kids? One to resist a smash and grab? One to resist a limited targeted attack (drills, sledge hammers, chisels)? One to be a tougher target? Does it need to resist charring paper in a house fire?
Once you determine the preferred location, you might consider adding support under that section of floor. Especially if it's an older home - the joists may already be 'tired', they may not be spaced the same as a modern 40lb/sq ft floor, and in may old homes the supports have been cut/removed for plumbing.
Good Luck,
Bob
Good Luck,
Bob
Look in the yellow pages under locksmiths or safes for an experienced safeman. Not all locksmiths have a good background with safes.
You will need help in selecting the proper safe to fit your needs. Also choosing a proper site in the house,installing it and correct service intervals is crucial in getting the full security value of the safe.
If you can afford it, you may want to get the fire rating option. It will add not only add cost to the safe, but a significant amount of weight.
Consider the added weight of the contents; don't forget about the weight of ammo.
Have someone inspect the condition of the beams under the house. Think long term about the location of the safe and the possibility of rot/termites. Get one that is bigger than you need now; you don't want to have to get another one later on. Moving an exsiting safe is a PITA compared to installing a new one.
IMO, get one with a Sargent & Greenleaf dial. Stay away from tubular keys and pushbutton/electronic locking devices.
Take care of the safe and it will outlast you. Make sure the dial doesn't get impact from hitting a wall when the door opens. Don't spin the dial hard like most people do. These are the things that an experienced safeman can show you. It may be expensive now, but consider the value-both intrinsic and sentimental of what you are trying to protect. You will also be paying to the nose if something fails and you get locked out. I have seen some beautiful ones still being used that are close to a hundred years old.
Good luck with the purchase and installation. If you need help, post to this thread and I will try to help you.
You will need help in selecting the proper safe to fit your needs. Also choosing a proper site in the house,installing it and correct service intervals is crucial in getting the full security value of the safe.
If you can afford it, you may want to get the fire rating option. It will add not only add cost to the safe, but a significant amount of weight.
Consider the added weight of the contents; don't forget about the weight of ammo.
Have someone inspect the condition of the beams under the house. Think long term about the location of the safe and the possibility of rot/termites. Get one that is bigger than you need now; you don't want to have to get another one later on. Moving an exsiting safe is a PITA compared to installing a new one.
IMO, get one with a Sargent & Greenleaf dial. Stay away from tubular keys and pushbutton/electronic locking devices.
Take care of the safe and it will outlast you. Make sure the dial doesn't get impact from hitting a wall when the door opens. Don't spin the dial hard like most people do. These are the things that an experienced safeman can show you. It may be expensive now, but consider the value-both intrinsic and sentimental of what you are trying to protect. You will also be paying to the nose if something fails and you get locked out. I have seen some beautiful ones still being used that are close to a hundred years old.
Good luck with the purchase and installation. If you need help, post to this thread and I will try to help you.
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- Feb 21, 2005
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- 2,662
It may be a bit awkward to put the safe in a place where it'll sit over the floor joists. 16" on center is fairly standard in most areas so, ideally you'd position the safe over two joists, but they may not be possible. If you can get the center of the safe over one joist and then brace the four corners with 4x4 posts, you should be good to go (maybe a two 4x4 posts under the joist too, just for good measure). Brace the posts with a few 2x4s on each side like you would deck posts.
I was also considering placing the safe on a pedestal, which has a larger footprint than the safe, to help dissipate the weight. I think it also allows easier access to the safe, and my wife doesn't want to look at a wooden pallet. I can't think of any manufacturers that sells pedestals? I might consider making my own and then covering it with matching carpet.
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- Jun 8, 2000
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I disagree with the idea of two lighter safes. For the added protection, the extra cash to move it later is worth it.
Forget the pedestal idea unless it's going to be concrete. Even a 1000lb safe with some stuff in it can be moved (or removed) by a couple crank heads with a fridge dolly. They haul the whole thing away and can then take their time opening it at another location. Don't count on gravity alone to keep your safe, safe. You need to bolt that sucker in place, well into the joists, not just the sub flooring.
I second the recommendation for finding a good knowledgable safe seller. They can save you a lot of headaches. I also go along with the idea of buying something larger than you think you need. Unless it's really a top end model, they have nearly no trade in value when it's time to upgrade and I'm not personally comfortable with listing a used safe in the local classifieds and having unknowns come over to look at it.
Regarding the lock, I'm of a mixed mind. The S&G locks seem to be the gold standard, but dial verses digital is a different question. With the dial lock, you have to pay to get teh combination changed, but it will always work as there's no battery to fail. However with the digital, you can set the combo yourself and it's six digits which is much harder to guess than the three or four on a dial lock. Plus you can have more than one combo, for instance, you have the Master combination, but you could give your wife/girlfriend/kids a combination of their own that they pick so it's easier for them to remember. This lets you be in control of access. Because you have the master code, you can delete their combinations (and access) should circumstances change, but they can never change yours. I went digital. My only regret so far is that the keys don't backlight. I keep a spare battery in the safe so there's always one nearby
John
Forget the pedestal idea unless it's going to be concrete. Even a 1000lb safe with some stuff in it can be moved (or removed) by a couple crank heads with a fridge dolly. They haul the whole thing away and can then take their time opening it at another location. Don't count on gravity alone to keep your safe, safe. You need to bolt that sucker in place, well into the joists, not just the sub flooring.
I second the recommendation for finding a good knowledgable safe seller. They can save you a lot of headaches. I also go along with the idea of buying something larger than you think you need. Unless it's really a top end model, they have nearly no trade in value when it's time to upgrade and I'm not personally comfortable with listing a used safe in the local classifieds and having unknowns come over to look at it.
Regarding the lock, I'm of a mixed mind. The S&G locks seem to be the gold standard, but dial verses digital is a different question. With the dial lock, you have to pay to get teh combination changed, but it will always work as there's no battery to fail. However with the digital, you can set the combo yourself and it's six digits which is much harder to guess than the three or four on a dial lock. Plus you can have more than one combo, for instance, you have the Master combination, but you could give your wife/girlfriend/kids a combination of their own that they pick so it's easier for them to remember. This lets you be in control of access. Because you have the master code, you can delete their combinations (and access) should circumstances change, but they can never change yours. I went digital. My only regret so far is that the keys don't backlight. I keep a spare battery in the safe so there's always one nearby
John
I wouldn't put a safe on a pedestal, unless the safe is bolted to the pedestal, and the pedestal is bolted through the floor. I am going to load it on a trailer and bring it home, then pay someone to move it inside. I would gladly pay someone to move it, rather than have a friend become injured, or damage the house.
Regarding locks, stick with a true Class 1 or 2. The S&G electronic models are class 1 locks and the standard spin dial is class 2. The ease of use the electronic lock ensures you never leave it open between grabbing things out of it. A spin dial is Pain in the Ass if you are transferring stuff back and forth from it and a vehicle. An electronic lock allow you to have a number you can remember and your wife to have her own she can remember. In my case, my best friend and his wife have their own numbers too, so if something happens to me they can get in without a huge expense and hassle to retrieve stuff.
I will put in my 2 pesos worth on this, even tho I may be repeating others.
When we started looking for one, we looked long and hard. Finally figured out that a safe is a long term investment that can be passed down to future generations.
So, we decided to get close to the very best we could. It weighs 1800 pounds empty, has fire rating and is still one of the largest of the home safes that we see out at the different shows.
Point is, do it right the first time and get a nice large one with as much fire rating as you can get. You can't imagine what you will end up putting in it.
Anyone I know that bought a small one, now has either upgraded or has more than one, and as much or more money invested than if they would have gotten a nice big one in the first place.
I even cancelled my safe deposit box at the bank. At the rate I was paying for the safe deposit box, I figure the safe will pay for itself in about 66.6 years
The amount of rifles, handguns, knives, jewelry, and other miscellaneous, we have in it, gives us a peace of mind that no regular burglars are going to come in and take it. They will have to have some very specialized tools and a lot of time to move it.
Not to mention that it is a beautiful piece of equiptment. Cant hardly call it furniture.
on edit: Also meant to say that a good safe dealer can tell you the weight per sq ft, and is invaluable in being able to deliver and put a large one in place. They know how to protect the flooring. Something this heavy can damage flooring just rolling it in on bare floors.
When we started looking for one, we looked long and hard. Finally figured out that a safe is a long term investment that can be passed down to future generations.
So, we decided to get close to the very best we could. It weighs 1800 pounds empty, has fire rating and is still one of the largest of the home safes that we see out at the different shows.
Point is, do it right the first time and get a nice large one with as much fire rating as you can get. You can't imagine what you will end up putting in it.
Anyone I know that bought a small one, now has either upgraded or has more than one, and as much or more money invested than if they would have gotten a nice big one in the first place.
I even cancelled my safe deposit box at the bank. At the rate I was paying for the safe deposit box, I figure the safe will pay for itself in about 66.6 years
The amount of rifles, handguns, knives, jewelry, and other miscellaneous, we have in it, gives us a peace of mind that no regular burglars are going to come in and take it. They will have to have some very specialized tools and a lot of time to move it.
Not to mention that it is a beautiful piece of equiptment. Cant hardly call it furniture.
on edit: Also meant to say that a good safe dealer can tell you the weight per sq ft, and is invaluable in being able to deliver and put a large one in place. They know how to protect the flooring. Something this heavy can damage flooring just rolling it in on bare floors.