Micro bevel

k5MOW

k5MOW

Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
214
Good morning everyone

I am a fairly new knife and sharpening enthusiast. I have been using the Edge Pro Apex now a couple of years. I have recently tried to get professional polished edges on my personal knives. I think I have achieved this goal. My edges appear to be polished and cut phonebook paper with ease.

I have sharpened my knives at different angles and I have also experimented with putting a micro bevel on some blades. My question is. What are the benefits and negatives for putting a micro bevel on the blade.

In my experience I tend to get just as good results when everI put a micro bevel on it or just finish the sharpening at one particular angle on the edge pro apex. After seeing a lot of videos online it appears to me that the micro bevel is for people who want to touch up the knife on a system like the Spiderco sharp maker.

I guess my question is. if I am just going to touch up my knife stropping and putting it back on the Edge pro apex. Do I need a micro bevel or what is the benefit of doing this.

I appreciate all the info and comments you can give me on this issue.

Roger
 
The micro-bevel gives the benefits of a higher angle without affecting slicing as much. The medium only has to overcome that tiny bevel rather than a full bevel at that same angle.

That said, it's a purely academic reasoning and you probably won't ever notice the effect in a practical sense.

I use a micro-bevel on my knives for quick touch ups and as a way to change cutting dynamics without losing the aesthetic of a polished main bevel. I spent an hour or two polishing, I don't want to redo all that work each time it needs to be touched up and sometimes a 400 grit toothy edge is more useful than a .1 micron polished one.

If your polished main bevel is at 15dps and you put a 400 grit micro bevel on at 20dps with just a few strokes it'll barely be visible and later you can just polish up that micro to go back to push cutting phone book paper.
 
On the flip side of that same coin you can do a 2-400 grit primary bevel on a working knife and polish the micro for a blade that won't show the scratches from working like a fully polished one will, but that is insanely sharp and quick to touch up.
 
To me some steels have trouble with a thin, or acute, edge. The edge doesn't hold up. The microbevel gives added strength to the edge, particularly if the edge/steel is prone to rolling. I use one on most knives.
 
Mostly same for me as posted above by TLE Sharp. You probably won't really notice in a big way but it does serve some purpose. I use the micro on some of my knives for quick touch ups and to preserve the main bevels longer. It takes awhile to get a nice polished sharp edge and I don't want to have to go thru hours of perfecting it every time it needs maintenance. That's where the micro comes in. Usually do +2 to +4 dps for the micro, depending on which sharpening tool I'm using.
 
Its a fast way to finish an edge, especially freehand but also i imagine on some of the guided systems.

You can go from a 1k to a 6k stone, apply the microbevel and not only get a much higher level of refinement, but allows you to create a nice mix of thin and toothy apex too.

As mentioned, it can be used to toughen up an edge that's been worked too thin by adding a few degrees.

In most cases stropping does the same or very similar in that both will add a few degrees to the edge.

On some very fine polishing stones it is just far easier to apply a microbevel - eg coming off of an EF diamond plate, a microbevel on the EEF will cut just as well as going over the entire bevel with the EEF.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Its a fast way to finish an edge, especially freehand but also i imagine on some of the guided systems.

You can go from a 1k to a 6k stone, apply the microbevel and not only get a much higher level of refinement, but allows you to create a nice mix of thin and toothy apex too.

As mentioned, it can be used to toughen up an edge that's been worked too thin by adding a few degrees.

In most cases stropping does the same or very similar in that both will add a few degrees to the edge.

On some very fine polishing stones it is just far easier to apply a microbevel - eg coming off of an EF diamond plate, a microbevel on the EEF will cut just as well as going over the entire bevel with the EEF.
Click to expand...

If the primary bevel is 30 degrees total, and you are sharpening a micro bevel to 40 degrees total, you remove much less steel from the blade than if the primary bevel was 40 degrees total the same as the micro bevel. After many micro bevel 40 degree angle sharpening's you will have to reprofile the primary's 30 degree bevel.

I wish I could draw a picture but if you draw the picture you will understand the purpose of a primary bevel that has a total edge degree less than the micro bevel.

Also the micro bevel edge is the working edge. It is usually sharpened to a degree angle that is best for most of the type of cutting that the knife will do. I'm ignoring steel types as some of the better steels will take a smaller micro bevel angle and still hold up very well.

Here is some info about micro bevel edges and sharpening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f_2y7QjKLc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XVVWucepNs

Here is some good video about the history of edges and sharpening in general by a man who has probably sharpened over a million knives in his career in the knife business.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB0r6GvESGg&t=70s
 
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GatorFlash1 said:
If the primary bevel is 30 degrees total, and you are sharpening a micro bevel to 40 degrees total, you remove much less steel from the blade than if the primary bevel was 40 degrees total the same as the micro bevel. After many micro bevel 40 degree angle sharpening's you will have to reprofile the primary's 30 degree bevel.

I wish I could draw a picture but if you draw the picture you will understand the purpose of a primary bevel that has a total edge degree less than the micro bevel.

Also the micro bevel edge is the working edge. It is usually sharpened to a degree angle that is best for most of the type of cutting that the knife will do. I'm ignoring steel types as some of the better steels will take a smaller micro bevel angle and still hold up very well.

Here is some info about micro bevel edges and sharpening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f_2y7QjKLc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XVVWucepNs

Here is some good video about the history of edges and sharpening in general by a man who has probably sharpened over a million knives in his career in the knife business.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB0r6GvESGg&t=70s
Click to expand...

Not that I'm really disagreeing with any of this, but if you were to maintain a 30 degree edge as a single bevel, over time you'd likely remove less steel than if applying a microbevel. At the least it would be a push, when you reset the 30 you have to push it far enough into the edge to erase the larger micro bevel, a difference of doing it all at once or over time.

If using a hard strop that mates a 30 degree primary with a 40 micro, you could simply use that and have the same functionality as a microbevel for most intents and purposes.

Aside from toughening up the apex a bit, one of the primary reasons for a microbevel is it makes a cleaner finished edge than trying to do so at the original angle. It is easier to finish the edge with a few passes at a higher angle than to manage the much lighter pressure and angle control needed to finish at the exact original angle. With a little more reliability, does away with any undetected fatigued steel that might be pushed side to side yet not identifiable as a bur - but this relates directly back to the first part re the difficultly of working and finishing at the original angle.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Not that I'm really disagreeing with any of this, but if you were to maintain a 30 degree edge as a single bevel, over time you'd likely remove less steel than if applying a microbevel. At the least it would be a push, when you reset the 30 you have to push it far enough into the edge to erase the larger micro bevel, a difference of doing it all at once or over time.

If using a hard strop that mates a 30 degree primary with a 40 micro, you could simply use that and have the same functionality as a microbevel for most intents and purposes.

Aside from toughening up the apex a bit, one of the primary reasons for a microbevel is it makes a cleaner finished edge than trying to do so at the original angle. It is easier to finish the edge with a few passes at a higher angle than to manage the much lighter pressure and angle control needed to finish at the exact original angle. With a little more reliability, does away with any undetected fatigued steel that might be pushed side to side yet not identifiable as a bur - but this relates directly back to the first part re the difficultly of working and finishing at the original angle.
Click to expand...


That assumes you have a knife with good steel that will hold up with a 30 degree edge. If I had such a knife I'd put a 20-25 primary bevel angle on it, and sharpen the micro bevel to 30 degrees. It would be a lot less work sharpening it I think. With my fine ceramic rods, and good steel knives, I really don't need a strop because I'm sharpening a knife edge for knife cutting purposes, not a razor edge or knife edge just to show my knife buddies that my knife will cut phone book paper. I don't want to sharpen any more than is absolutely necessary, and from some of the knives I have seen many folks are too aggressive and over sharpen their knives.
 
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All good, we all have our own strategies for keeping our knives in good order.

In keeping in line with the OP question though, I haven't really seen any performance improvement in using a microbevel as long as the edge isn't worked too thin initially. They seldom help with lateral stability, and edge retention is more influenced by specific use, finish, and when push comes to shove, primary grind.

In my experience the folks that really use microbevels religiously are folks with a Sharpmaker or some other ready guide.

In general I use most of my knives at 26-30, stropped on a hard backing with abrasive or plain paper - they are plenty aggressive for EDU if dosed with an appropriate abrasive, and easy to maintain. It comes back to the tools one favors. Even on my woodworking tools, when using a hard strop I'm adding a degree or two to the edge and cleaning up anything left over from the grinding process that refuses to come off on a hard abrasive at the same angle. Some people prefer a guide and a microbevel, an assortment of lapping films etc etc - all serve the same purpose.

If its a working knife I'll stop at a lower grit rather than change how broad the microbevel is - usually stropping on plain paper just to show any latent burrs. I've never seen any real benefit to microbeveling with the same grit I was working the secondary, so I just clean up the edge and go. On steels that like to hold onto their burr, I might make a few high angle swipes and back to the secondary, but am not intentionally making a third angle. Touchups can be done just as easily at the established secondary - more so if one is freehanding as the secondary bevel can be felt while the micro must be assumed or guessed at.

If I am determined not to lose even a single degree to a micro bevel or abrasive strop, I'll still use the plain paper to shine up the burrs and a scrape and grind method of final burr removal. Am not usually this particular unless running a test of some sort.

When sharpening for other folk is when I most often make use of microbevels as it allows me to skip refining the entire bevel. They get a nice clean edge reasonably refined and probably have no preferred method of keeping it sharp other than to use it carefully - so don't really care how the edge is specifically finished.
 
k5MOW said:
Good morning everyone

I am a fairly new knife and sharpening enthusiast. I have been using the Edge Pro Apex now a couple of years. I have recently tried to get professional polished edges on my personal knives. I think I have achieved this goal. My edges appear to be polished and cut phonebook paper with ease.

I have sharpened my knives at different angles and I have also experimented with putting a micro bevel on some blades. My question is. What are the benefits and negatives for putting a micro bevel on the blade.

In my experience I tend to get just as good results when everI put a micro bevel on it or just finish the sharpening at one particular angle on the edge pro apex. After seeing a lot of videos online it appears to me that the micro bevel is for people who want to touch up the knife on a system like the Spiderco sharp maker.

I guess my question is. if I am just going to touch up my knife stropping and putting it back on the Edge pro apex. Do I need a micro bevel or what is the benefit of doing this.

I appreciate all the info and comments you can give me on this issue.

Roger
Click to expand...

Nah, skip the micro if you can properly deburr without it and you'll have a higher performance edge.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Its a fast way to finish an edge, especially freehand but also i imagine on some of the guided systems.

You can go from a 1k to a 6k stone, apply the microbevel and not only get a much higher level of refinement, but allows you to create a nice mix of thin and toothy apex too.

As mentioned, it can be used to toughen up an edge that's been worked too thin by adding a few degrees.

In most cases stropping does the same or very similar in that both will add a few degrees to the edge.

On some very fine polishing stones it is just far easier to apply a microbevel - eg coming off of an EF diamond plate, a microbevel on the EEF will cut just as well as going over the entire bevel with the EEF.
Click to expand...

Let me ask HH and the other pros a question about "stropping as microbeveling". This seems to contradict the idea that increasing the angle a bit when stropping is counterproductive in that it rounds the edge. But maybe it all depends on what kind of strop? With a traditional leather on wood strop, rounding can be a problem, but maybe with the very firm strops HH is referencing (paper on wood, etc.), effective microbeveling is possible. Is that it?

Thanks,

Andrew
 
DeadboxHero said:
Nah, skip the micro if you can properly deburr without it and you'll have a higher performance edge.
Click to expand...

How so?

OP, a micro bevel is simply a way to speed sharpening at the higher grits. I first learned about it in Leonard Lee's book on sharpening. He recommended it for chisels and plane blades. If your use requires a 30 degree bevel (total like on a chisel) then you can sharpen on a coarse and medium stone at say 27 degrees, then do fine and extra fine at 30. This saves time and wear on the finer stones which are typically more expensive. I sharpen my knives with a 12 degree per side bevel and a 15 degree per side micro bevel. The increase in angle need only be enough to overcome any sloppiness in your angle control. If you use a Wicked Edge or Edge Pro, then a 1 degree increase is probably OK. I can go from a 220 grit waterstone to the medium Sharpmaker rods and finish in as few as 5 passes per side. Though the rods say medium they're really quite fine compared to a medium grit waterstone or even a fine Norton India stone.
 
There are some specific knives with extreme geometries that I put a microbevel on. Otherwise most knifes especially folders benefit without.
Too steep, the apex rounds out quicker from cutting.
 
You can choose the micro bevel angle just as easily as the other. What benefits are there for not using one, particularly folders which is what I mostly use?
 
AFAustin said:
Let me ask HH and the other pros a question about "stropping as microbeveling". This seems to contradict the idea that increasing the angle a bit when stropping is counterproductive in that it rounds the edge. But maybe it all depends on what kind of strop? With a traditional leather on wood strop, rounding can be a problem, but maybe with the very firm strops HH is referencing (paper on wood, etc.), effective microbeveling is possible. Is that it?

Thanks,

Andrew
Click to expand...

Even if you lower the angle on most stropping media you will either maintain at the original or still induce some rounding. Not all steels need this (fine grained higher RC) and even the ones that do benefit can be coaxed to a clean edge without. But, most will do fine with a slight microbevel or convexing and come out with a cleaner apex for it. Whether this toughens them up is another question all else being equal (micro at X degrees vs straight V edge at X degrees).

I have often speculated that micobeveling on a hard surface induces a slight bit of workhardening - the amount of force being exerted on that tiny contact area exceeds abrasive removal rate - as long as the edge doesn't fold, you get a slight bit of workhardening to go with your larger apex angle - this is just a speculation.

On a hard strop, polishing grade waterstones and even on hard fixed abrasives you will have considerable difficulty on many common/budget steels removing the final burr at the same angle, some increase in angle of attack is really helpful to eliminating all the burr. This is even more pronounced on wider bevel edges.

I noticed a long time ago that on hard enough strops (paper over stone/WB, boiled/waxed leather) you can microbevel. The transition is not as crisp as off a stone, but the end result will be the same. Harder strops reach an equilibrium state faster and with less rounding than softer strops.

Whether rounding on any strop is a problem or not, is going to depend on a lot of factors - certainly keeping it to a minimum or controlling the amount of sink is a plus.

Not sure if any of this answers your question....
 
Thanks, HH. That is very helpful.

Andrew
 
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me2 said:
You can choose the micro bevel angle just as easily as the other. What benefits are there for not using one, particularly folders which is what I mostly use?
Click to expand...

its just sharper in my experience, crisper edges, treetoping, fast cuts and longer lasting edges
most folders are too thick behind the edge to take full advantage of the microbevel: 0.020-0.035. So I just keep em all at 15dps and I really enjoy the performance. If I do a mircobevel it would only be after a complete zero regrind to 0.015-0.010 on the primary grind which means sharpening at 15dps would only make a hair wide bevel. Now thats a microbevel. Otherwise making a compound bevel just sets my apexs to round over sooner so I stopped doing the mircobevel on my folders since its reduces my cutting performance.
 
So to be clear, you aren't able to get tree topping edges with a micro bevel? Even if you set the edge at 12 to 13 degrees then micro bevel at your usual 15 degree? Looking back I think we're using the term differently. How wide were you're micro bevels when you used them? Mine are between 0.001 and 0.005 inches wide, easily removed with 20 passes per side on a King 1000 grit stone.
 
me2 said:
So to be clear, you aren't able to get tree topping edges with a micro bevel? Even if you set the edge at 12 to 13 degrees then micro bevel at your usual 15 degree? Looking back I think we're using the term differently. How wide were you're micro bevels when you used them? Mine are between 0.001 and 0.005 inches wide, easily removed with 20 passes per side on a King 1000 grit stone.
Click to expand...

I am, I just do not see any advantage on a folding knife unless I was having deburring issues

I only use them for specific knives, for instance a yanagiba, Ill do a few passes on my finishing stone at the end of my sharpening to strengthen the geometry since its so extreme


I would only do a microbevel on a folder if I zero ground the primary grind 10dps and needed to put a MB so the edge wouldn't explode when I cut something. :D

otherwise its just a wasted step IMHO

Id rather just deburr at the same angle.
 
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