Military Khukuris [WWII] (markings) - John Powell

beoram

beoram

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I was reading Howard Wallace's Khukuri FAQ - John Powell on military khukuris and I came across a paragraph which I don't quite understand--maybe someone can help me out:

8. The Brit military broad arrow was never used with just the word "India" but was used during Indian manufacture. Sometimes you will see a knife with the word "India" stamped over old markings and a broad arrow however. This is a legit WW II blade. Like I said, a whole separate chapter.

In particular, I'm a little confused about the first sentence (The Brit military broad arrow was never used with just the word "India" but was used during Indian manufacture):--
Does this mean that sometimes the Brit military broad arrow was used with the word 'India' along with other markings?

I suppose the basic question is: if a khukuri has the word 'India' stamped on it, but it's not stamped over old markings, could it still be a legit WWII blade? So a khukuri with just a broad arrow and 'INDIA' stamped on is a "knock-off", is that it?

Did postcolonial India stamp the word 'India' over old markings on some blades--is that why a knife with 'India' stamped over old markings is legit?

What sort of 'old markings' would 'INDIA' be stamped over?

Thanks again, Ben.
 
beoram,

You can read more about this on this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173256&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

The story is that immediately after the war a certain number of genuine military khukuries were purchased as surplus and restamped sometimes remanufactured for the tourist trade. The blades are stamped with the original military markings to which the word india has been added (to satisfy county of origin on external sales).

n2s
 
Thanks N2S - that thread is quite informative. Still doesn't quite address what I'm wondering about...both of the examples you mention show quite a number of other markings, as well as the arrow (and 'INDIA', either punch-marked or stamped).

--Were any of the WWII blades simply stamped with an arrow (w/o other markings) and later stamped or punched with 'INDIA'?

Thanks again, Ben.
 
Get expert opinion before buying any khukuri (or probably anything else for that matter) that is touted as being "real, genuine, rare, etc."

Hang in, Beo, John will be around to clear this up.
 
Ben,

I don't recall ever having seen anything khukuries, bayonets, or issued knives with just the broad arrow marking. I have some khukuries marked with just a crude broad arrow, but these are not issued pieces. They are modern and crude reproductions made in India and marketed through Atlanta Cutlery.

N2S
 
N2S,
Have you any idea of what the other markings (like in the examples you pointed to) mean? Do they have to do with where the khukuri was made, or when, or inspection-mark or some combination of these?

[In the Khukuri FAQ John Powell does mention the significance of some of the markings:

The marks on the blades vary widely, but these are guaranteed Indian produced marks:
*an I with the broad arrow over it.
*an I (broad arrow) and the letters G or D or IG or SA to the
on the other side.
*23 or 20 or 21 are Indian Government ownership or inspection marks.
*C (broad arrow) 15, C(broad arrow) 544 and P (broad arrow) 5 are
acceptance or inspectors marks.
*dates are also stamped as 1915 or 15, plus regimental
and brigades 1/3 or just 3, etc.
*43, 44 with an M over the numerals and M41 or just 1941.
*Scabbards were stamped also and rarely match the knife. On WW I
models look on or above the small brass chape for inspectors marks
also. Post war and WW II models also had the scabbards marked
under the frog or behind the belt loop..

but I was wondering what some of the other ones mean....]


Also, can anyone tell me what the significance of the broad-arrow is (ie, why that symbol?)?

B.
 
We are all waiting for John's upcoming book to help us catalog these markings. Most khukuries, including some military knives and exceptionally done older knives, where hand made and unmarked. We can't really identify them in the same sense that we can identify Western knives.

The military did establish some factories to fullfil military orders and these are the knives that tend to turn up with marked blades. The G, D, IG and SA are Indian factory marks. Even some European makers like Wilkinson Sword produced a few. But, even though the military was producing these knives, there were also a large number of privately produced (unmarked) knives in service.

n2s
 
The kind of marks that turn up on military equipment varies quite a bit. The broad arrow indicated that the item had been accepted as British Military property. There were then usually, inspection marks, dates of manufacture, and stamps indicating the manufacturer. Some pieces even turn up with individual serial numbers.

Many knives are also marked with arsenal information, and some with unit information. Edge weapons were in service for decades, and often transfered from one nation to another, many were also officially remanufactured. So additional markings were often added long after the piece was originally manufactured.

It is hard to approach this from 30,000 feet. You really have to focus on very specific products in order to develop an understanding of all the markings. I know a couple of collectors who have built extensive collections around a single pattern. One guy has focused on the US Mark II ka-bar, and another on the German 98-05 bayonet. Just the variations in markings alone have allowed them to collect hundreds of distinct examples.

n2s
 
--Were any of the WWII blades simply stamped with an arrow (w/o other markings) and later stamped or punched with 'INDIA'?

Ben,
Every broad arrow I have seen on the blade of an authentic WW II kukri had other marks associated with it. I have seen examples of scabbards and frogs with just the arrow. In some cases after the war the word INDIA was overstamped to sell as tourist pieces

No idea what the symbol stands for, but I bet our resident research expert and finder of obscure info could find some reference. Berk?
 
O.K.

Here are a few more.

These relate exclusively to Commonwealth equipment produced for/by India:

1. "V/I/C/E" (clockwise in a heart symbol) = East India ownership marking
2. "R.F.I." =Rifle Factory Ishapore
3. "M.I.L." = Metal Industries Lahore
4. "N.W.R." = North West Railways
5. "FR 55" = Factory repair 1955
6. "X" = Bend test mark proof
7. "I (broad arrow) G/I" = Indian Government Ownership Mark
8. "E (broad arrow) G/I" = East India Government Ownership Mark

9. "N/16", "K/4", "IS/214", "IG/6" = Examples of inspection marks

As you can see the broad arrow (#s 7&8) does not appear alone.

N2S
 
The Broad Arrow (sometimes referrred to as the pheon) or barbed javelin-head, is a heraldic device (a "charge" or "bearing") somewhat like the modern mace, which was customarily carried before royalty by a sergeant-at-arms. It became a royal mark in 1687 by the Charter of James II to the Tower of London, and has been used since that time to mark government property, or "Crown stores". The Broad Arrow is one of the oldest "trademarks" still in use for its original purpose.
 
I hear eating prickly pear is good for the brain but bad for the gut. Remember, it was gut, not brain, surgery Berk had.
 
OK, what do people make of these markings?:

(1)
ak1.jpg


broad arrow and then below what almost looks like 'K E 7 4'???
[not too sure about 'K E', but '7' is pretty clear & maybe '4'....

(2)
ak4.jpg

'INDIA' stamp

thanks for all of the info-particularly John Powell, N2S & Berk (really interested in the 'broad arrow' "genealogy").

Cheers, B.
 
This looks like the military M3 khukuri that Atlanta Cutlery has been importing. In theory the "KE" is supposed to be the manufacturer and "74" is the year of manufacture. My working assumption with these (I have several) is that they are recent manufactured items (late 60s and later) intended for US sales.

n2s
 
I agree with N2S. Looks like the type Atlanta Cutlery churns out by the truckload. They apparently have made the process even cheaper by 'acid' etching on the broad arrow (Berk, is this trademark infringement?) and the word INDIA. I saw one example where they printed the word completely in reverse. Lots of QC, eh?

After 1947 the new governments of India and Pakistan could no longer use the broad arrow since this is purely an English proof mark, so anything you see made there past these dates is bogus.
 
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