Mini Forge Presses and the like...

[Shane Csepp]

I have recently started to learn the forging process and have successfully forged a couple blades, made some san mai, and have been hammering on a billet of 15N20/1095 for MANY hours to make my first Damascus blade. Like any normal sane person thinks when hammering away.... There has to be an easier way.... Hence forge press questions...

Now I know the general consensus is buy once cry once, build a dedicated forge press of ample speed and force, mini presses are a waste of time and money for any real forging, etc... While I agree in the grand scheme of things, unfortunately it's just not in the budget at this time. One day, it will be but for the time being I am looking for something that will be sufficient enough to do small projects. I'm not looking at forging Damascus swords, large billets, but rather just enough to make smaller kitchen and hunting blades while learning the process and not killing my shoulder.

It seems in my research there seems to be two camps...

First off, the Air/Hydraulic 20 Ton Mini-Press build. Seems easy enough. (I am a Mechanical Engineer by day with access to the correct tools so welding/designing a press with a significant safety factor is no problem for me.) The drawback to this design is the speed of the unit. The bottle jack only performs at a snails pace, and requires a lot of air. I have a 120gal compressor so I'm not worried about air consumption being a bottle neck. But only being able to get a few squishes per heat still takes a lot of time to forge billets.

The second camp is people taking a 6-8 ton electric log splitter and revamping it to squish steel. This is a lot easier of a build, but it sacrifices force for a bit of speed.

The question is/are, for those of you out there using one of these two methods, how does it perform? Are you happy with the performance overall? Everything else aside, Is it better to have speed or force if you have to choose one or the other? Other opinions as to which method is better for the intended purpose?

I am in no way under the illusion that either method is the best for the job, they are simply a bridge tool until I can gather the parts for a big boy press, or have the cash to buy a commercially available unit.

 

[3fifty7]

I have a 20 ton air/hydraulic jack press in my shop (had it long before I started forging knives).
ITS SLOW! The slowness of the ram really sucks the heat out of a billet. I wouldn’t worry too much about your compressor, it will have ample time to catch up when your work is back in the forge heating up.

I’ll also say it’s underpowered. I have a 1.5”x2” die and it’s not moving much. I have a radiused fullering die that’s about the only thing I use, but I do use it.

I would not consider setting a damascus or San Mai weld with this.

ITS SLOW

 

[Shane Csepp]

I have a 20 ton air/hydraulic jack press in my shop (had it long before I started forging knives).
ITS SLOW! The slowness of the ram really sucks the heat out of a billet. I wouldn’t worry too much about your compressor, it will have ample time to catch up when your work is back in the forge heating up.

I’ll also say it’s underpowered. I have a 1.5”x2” die and it’s not moving much. I have a radiused fullering die that’s about the only thing I use, but I do use it.

I would not consider setting a damascus or San Mai weld with this.

ITS SLOW

Thanks for the insight! I can see myself being frustrated with how slow it operates.

 

[Ken H>]

For a forging press there are 2 main things to consider: Tons and ram speed. 9 tons will do pretty darn good as a forging press - that's what the Coal Iron 12 ton press is, only 9 tons. They use a 3" bore cylinder at 2500 psi which is around 9 ton. Ram travel speed needs to be at leasts 1.6 IPS, and better 2 to 3 IPS. Here are two calculators you can use to check your cylinder bore size and PSI to see tons and speed. It's fun to play around with the calculators to see what size pump, cylinder, etc is needed for the press.

https://www.baumhydraulics.com/images/calculators/cyl_calc.htm (tons)
https://www.baumhydraulics.com/images/calculators/cyl_speed.htm (IPS)

It seems that most forging presses operate in the 2000 to 3000 psi range which gives a 3" bore cylinder size as about the minimum you would wish to use. The IPS calculator will give an idea of the GPM pump size required. Remember, that is the no-load speed before the ram touches the billet.

A 4" cylinder will cost around $130 or so shipped. I just ordered one that is scheduled for delivery this Sat. Only if you have an old log splitter that is junked out would I consider using parts from the log splitter.

Good luck and have fun designing the press.

 

[Joshua Fisher]

I’m going to suggest looking into the coal iron 12 ton press, I’m pretty sure you can finance through their website. May be worth getting the tool made for the job then trying to build something and put time into a project that might not work well for you.

 

[Shane Csepp]

I’m going to suggest looking into the coal iron 12 ton press, I’m pretty sure you can finance through their website. May be worth getting the tool made for the job then trying to build something and put time into a project that might not work well for you.

Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Gilbert M]

I've used a mini press with a much smaller air compressor than you for quite a bit of Damascus, canister, cable, etc. Until I started selling knives I kept everything very low budget I try to at least get close to paying for my hobby. I also used a 1 by 30 grinder for a little while made a few okay knives with it. Now that I built an Appalachian Power hammer and an adequate sized hydraulic press I don't use the bottle jack anymore but I also don't feel too bad about it since it was probably under two hundred bucks. The real key is to keep the dies as close to your material as possible and make a variety of dies in different sizes. I was trying to find a j t video but I couldn't find it he really worked very well. Now I wouldn't go so far as rebuilding a log splitter because that's quite a bit more expensive I think. Good luck

 

[Shane Csepp]

I've used a mini press with a much smaller air compressor than you for quite a bit of Damascus, canister, cable, etc. Until I started selling knives I kept everything very low budget I try to at least get close to paying for my hobby. I also used a 1 by 30 grinder for a little while made a few okay knives with it. Now that I built an Appalachian Power hammer and an adequate sized hydraulic press I don't use the bottle jack anymore but I also don't feel too bad about it since it was probably under two hundred bucks. The real key is to keep the dies as close to your material as possible and make a variety of dies in different sizes. I was trying to find a j t video but I couldn't find it he really worked very well. Now I wouldn't go so far as rebuilding a log splitter because that's quite a bit more expensive I think. Good luck

Thanks!

I've built my grinder, my heat treat oven, and surface grinder so far. I'm confident in the ability to build a press, but just trying to get some real world insight from other makers that may have the cheaper options out there.

Do you find that speed or force is more important for forging efficiency if you had to pick one or the other?

 

[Gilbert M]

If I had to pick one or the other force would be my choice but without speed you will lose too much heat and not get enough squishes in.

 

[weo]

Do you find that speed or force is more important for forging efficiency if you had to pick one or the other?

I would want more info on the specific parameters before answering this.
IMO, if the press has at least ~10 tons of working pressure/force, then I'd opt for more speed over more power,

 

[Gilbert M]

I'll add a couple things for you with that 20 ton air hydraulic press to me it seems more like maybe 2 tons doesn't seem that high but on a 9 inch integral chef knife you could set the bolster up in 1 Heat. Since you build things my 20-plus ton press with a "C" frame ended up under $2000 and Appalachian hammer was about $700.

 

[Shane Csepp]

I'll add a couple things for you with that 20 ton air hydraulic press to me it seems more like maybe 2 tons doesn't seem that high but on a 9 inch integral chef knife you could set the bolster up in 1 Heat. Since you build things my 20-plus ton press with a "C" frame ended up under $2000 and Appalachian hammer was about $700.

Without any real world experience with the 20 Ton Mini-press, I'll agree in a lot of the videos it doesn't seem like a lot of squish happens when compared to other videos of similar tonnage.

 

[Ken H>]

I’m going to suggest looking into the coal iron 12 ton press, I’m pretty sure you can finance through their website. May be worth getting the tool made for the job then trying to build something and put time into a project that might not work well for you.

I've got the Coal Iron 12 ton press and have been pleased with it, EXCEPT it's VERY important to note it's only a 9 ton press. It's got a 3" bore cylinder operating at a spec'd 2550 psi which is 9 ton. My press is only 2250 psi, so about 8 ton actual tons. The control valve needs adjusting to increase pressure.

I would want more info on the specific parameters before answering this.
IMO, if the press has at least ~10 tons of working pressure/force, then I'd opt for more speed over more power,

A perfect example of the Coal Iron 12 ton press that operates at 9 ton, but with a fairly rapid 3.5 IPS stroke. I discussed this with Nathan of Coal Iron who explained the press was designed with a 3.5" cylinder, but they are harder (I'd guess more expensive) to get than the 3" cylinder. Testing showed them the 9 tons works about as well as the 12 ton did due to the increased speed of stroke that helps maintain heat.

I agree with Shane, there is no reason a forging press can't be built. Before purchasing the Coal Iron 12 ton press I'd never even seen a press other than videos. After using and learning for a couple of months - a press would be easy to build and not all that expensive considering what a factory press costs.

After using my little 8 ton press I think a 15 to 20 ton press could easy be built for $1,000 or so considering what parts Shane will scrounge from around the farm. Good chance there's a motor laying around, even if it's only 2hp that would do for a while and get 12 ton pretty easy, and even 16 ton with a 4" cylinder. Even if open framed I'd use it for a while - might be surprised how long the open frame lasts for a press.