Multicolored mosaic damascus - any functional compromise?

RogerP

RogerP

Joined
Feb 28, 2002
Messages
13,348
Hello all,

I've got to admit that I'm really mesmerized by some of the stunning mosaic damascus work out there, some of which is heat-blued to produce dazzling colours in the blade. I do wonder, though, whether there is any resulting compromise from a functional standpoint. Granted, some of these knives fall squarely in the "art" category and are not intended for hard use - but if the primary elements in the contruction of the knfe (metals used, pattern produced, heating etc.) are geared toward a particular aesthetic effect, is there anything at all in terms of fuction (strength, resilience, edge-holding) given up for the stunning good-looks?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or input.

Roger
 
I really don't think that most of these knives were designed to be used. I could be wrong, but when a person invests that much money on a knife that he is buying because of it's beauty, I don't think that many would take the chance on scratching the blade.

Never having owned a knife with a mosaic blade (even if I did, I don't think that I would have the courage to cut with it) I do not know if one would stand up as well as a regular damascus blade or not. Since there is a wide variance in the edge holding abilities of regular damascus blades, I woul imagine that mosaic would be the same. You probably would find that some would be much better than others in that department.
 
The heat coloring process can have some effect on the use-ability of the blade. However, most of us who are doing this sort of thing try to stick to our roots of creating something that first is a knife. Usually the maker knows how far he or she can go with the heat coloring, and still maintain a usable blade. Lately I've been creating colors with a different method, due to the limited colors I could achieve without ruining the cutting ability of the blade. (I'll preimier the new stuff at the OKCA show in Eugene next month). I will have to admit that mosaic steels, at least some of the patterns, where the weld lines run at 90 degrees to the length of the blade will not withstand the abuse that a simple twist or random patterned blade will. As with everything in knifemaking, there are trade offs. Some durability is sacraficed to obtain the wild visual effects. But again, you are talking a whole other realm of knives.........this material is generall reserved for the high end collector pieces.
However, for testing purposes I have made myself mosaic hunting knives for the past three years, and each has gone through many critters without problem one. Again, at least for me, it's a matter of sticking with the basic principals of why I started making knives int he first place........building a better mouse trap!
 
here is a mosaic hunter by James Lumens that has been blued. Some what different from heat coloring but interesting non the less

7098629.jpg
 
Thanks very much guys - very informative post as usual by Mr. Caffrey, and nice knife as usual by Murray.

Roger
 
This is a good topic becase this is something that can vary with different makers. You can heat treat the damascus at one temperature and then stress relieve it at a lower. Say 1500 and then 350 now that will give you about 58 rockwell this is what the rockwell tester I have been using says anyway. To blue the knives in most bluing tanks you use about 270 witch does not effect the blade, but you have some of this bluing that is being used that is done at 550 Fahrenheit. This will bring the rockwell down because it is being relived at a high temp than it should be for the rockwell desired for a good cutting edge. I know some makers heat treat at a different temp and it does not make as much difference to go in that hot of a tank and that is a good thing but I just wander about some of the knives that are out there with really soft blades. I see this as something that is going to sneak up on some of the makers and bit them, but that is just my thoughts on it.
 
When discussing a new blade for a Sebenza with the Reeves people, the fact that the knife might see some use was mentioned. At that point the fact that the damascus currently used by CRK has a high nickle content (for a better etch), and they HIGHLY recommend not using the knife...

...uuhhhh.....

-Michael
 
It is true that nickel will give some of the very best contrast that can be achieved in damascus (laminated) steels. However, nickel will not harden, nor is it a very durable material (at least as far as cutting type implements) Therefore we are back to the "trade offs" again. In this case performance has been traded for eye appeal.
Most of us that are concerned with the performance of a blade might use nickel in parts of the blade, but we are very careful that it does not cross into the cutting edge. As with any material used in a forged blade, if you put it in the right places, and do not over do it, you can strike a balance between beauty and function. The beauty versus function issue is one of the reasons that many bladesmiths have gone with the mix of 1084 and 15N20 for damascus. The contrast is stong, due to the small nickel content of 15N20, but basically it is nothing more than 1075 with 2-2.5% nickel. With this you have a mixture that is completly hardenable, and while the contrast may not be as brilliant as pure nickel, the performance is maintained. There are also other reason for using 15N20 rather than nickel, but those do not bear on this thread.
 
Is this a great place for knife info or what? The posts have raised some latent concerns of mine in purchasing a colourful mosaic damascus knife. While I would not subject a knife like that to hard use to me, if it can't cut, then it's not a knife. It may be a beautiful sculpture in metal, but it wouldn't interest me - at least not to the point of parting with dollars for it. Same reason I wouldn't buy a Corvette with a Chevette engine, even if I never intended to drive the car at 175mph.

So my question is, how does the consumer find a knife that strikes that balance between beauty and function? How do we (or I, in case no-one else thinks this way) avoid the pretty knife with a soft blade that won't hold an edge? Mr. Caffrey mentioned that only limited colours can be obtained through heat-colouring without ruining the cutting ability of the blade - should the presence of some colours be treated as a caution sign for potential significant functional compromise? And how does one tell if the nickel forged into the blade has come impermissibly close to the cutting edge? Can you tell just by looking at it? Any other pointers for finding that right balance, or at least avoiding the major functional compromise?

Thanks,

Roger
 
My suggestions would be as follows.....
1. Trust the makers word. Especially when it comes to nickel, as it is difficult for the untrained eye to determine. Anything that has nickel running into the cutting edge of the blade will degrade it's function as a "cutter" Any maker worth his or her salt, will do their very best to determine a customers needs, and then direct them to the product that best suits that application.
2. On mosaic pieces (at least those that are made of multilple carbon steels) that have been "heat colored", ask straight forward questions as to the usability of the blade. Generally speaking you are fairly safe with going into the straws, browns/vermillions, and the medium/dark blues on most carbon steels and still maintaining a good level of cutting ability.
The "heat" colors on steel are nothing more than a oxide that forms at certain temp specific to each steel type. For example, lets use 1084.....
Light straw..........hard and somewhat brittle
dark straw..........excellent edge and less brittle
browns and vermillion (reddish brown)...Less edge holding but more durable
Purple.........considered "spring" range (this means that it will hold a reasonable edge, but be tough and durable.
Blues....... More springy, and less hardness, but still a usable blade.

Light(sky or "baby") blue....the blade has gone past what I consider adequate hardness to perform as a blade.

slate gray............unusable as a knife blade.

These colors will vary from steel to steel, and in some of the alloy steels, the usability is great up through the dark to med blue colors.

This is only an example of 1084,and eventhough you might feel as if your putting a knifemaker "on the spot" by asking such direct questions, it is the best way to understand exactly what you are purchasing!
 
Great question and information. Thanks everyone! I learned quite a lot.
 
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