Murray Carter White paper steel issue?

sogtrident7

sogtrident7

Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
268
Recieved a Murray Carter Original neck knife yesterday. My first cut on plastic packaging I notice a small chip. I ran my fingernail up the side and over the edge and I can chip it in that fashion. Attempting to resharpen hind convexing with 1200 over leather chips it.

Did he not temper it back after heat treat? Do these tend to run that hard and brittle?

I love the knife to death and it will be my non work carry blade so it will need to be usable and sharpenable. Any Carter guys out there? Your input would be awesome.

All that being said I shot an email earlier and he responded personally within 30 mins on a Sunday. Can’t ask for more. I’ll be sending it back tomorrow but I do fear the “everything seems normal”.

This is my first experience with this steel and obviously his heat treat but I have not had issue with any other steel like this except one that was sent back and the maker tempered and sent back and was perfect after that. I have 20 years into this as a hobby and my sharpening is in my mind anyway, very very good.

Long story short it’s going back as it should but I’m looking more for anyone’s experience with Murray’s paper white.

Thanks
 
The first thing I would do would be to check if the edge has a wire edge. This would be my first guess as to what's going on.

If not, that steel is poorly heat treated.
 
Twindog said:
The first thing I would do would be to check if the edge has a wire edge. This would be my first guess as to what's going on.

If not, that steel is poorly heat treated.
Click to expand...
Definitely no wire. It’s miles too brittle for one.
 
Twindog said:
Why do you say the steel is too brittle for a wire edge?
Click to expand...
He said that that the Apex chipped out. Due to this, any wire edge that was there would have also broken off.

There is a definite and noticeable difference in how a wire edge tears and a chipped edge hangs up or catches.

OP:
That being said it, it is very odd that it pops when ran along a fingernail. This is probably why Twindog is asking about the wire edge.
 
Twindog said:
Why do you say the steel is too brittle for a wire edge?
Click to expand...
How does it form a wire when it’s not malleable at all. Asking not condescendingly. Assuming it is a wire forming how would I sharpen that and keep it from chipping when minimal side pressure with my nail chips it? I absolutely love the knife, I’m pretty bummed I have to send it out.
 
There are a lot of different wire edges -- some big and ductile; some small and brittle.

I don't know that your issue is caused by a wire edge, but that is always my first suspect.

When S30V first came out, a fair number of people experienced chipping from light use. I believe the problem was that the steel needed a faster quench during the heat treat. But generally, I would expect that Carter would see a problem heat treat that bad when sharpening. But he might easily leave a very small burr that could exhibit that kind of chipping.

You could try to put on a micro bevel on the edge. That would take only a minute or so, and you'd get a better idea of what's going on.
 
You might want to look at this video by Carter that talks about chipping. He says three things cause chipping: over heating (which increase grain growth and reduces toughness), poor tempering that leaves the edge hard, but not tough, and over-tasking the edge.

 
so you bought a new Carter direct from him?
it chipped out on first use, you contacted Murray and he responded with send it back to him for review?
I'm curious if it's an apprentice or Muteki or Carter made?

I know it's a bummer when something like this happens. Murray is going to make it right, I don't think you should be too concerned at this point. He does an edge flex test to check the temper and that's likely the first thing he is going to do with your knife when he gets it back.

Here's a knife I made with him in a class in Dec 2015, It's my personal shop knife and I use it almost every day.
Sharpened often and never had a problem.

nxYWWK2.jpg

regards
 
As soon as I read that the edge chips by running finger nail through, I thought of overheated toast. Sth went seriously wrong during the process of knife making.
 
I wish I knew how to post pics and videos. He did say it was one of his. He recognized by the photo of the grind lol.

I know of the lighter test as I saw the same video. There is seriously no flex in the edge. You would be amazed how light of pressure with my nail chips the edge. This is with a 30deg primary now on a microbevel just see what was what. Soon as my nail hits the edge I can hear and feel that glass rod break sound. Effed.

I’m by no means worried. He said as soon as it’s in his hands he will test it with me right on the phone with him.
 
So a neck knife made from Hitachi #1 Shirogami? Interesting choice.
 
Ok guys I got off the phone with Murray about 20 mins ago for the second time.

He said he got his hands on the knife Wednesday afternoon. I recieved the first call Thursday l morning. He said there was a definite temper issue. He said he put pressure on the primary edge as I did until failure. He said he knew by the sound of the steel when he tapped the blade with his finger nail as soon as he got it in his hands lol. He said he examined the chip and the grain looked perfect so it was in tempering. He then offered to fix mine, forge me a new one or if I wanted to wait a bit, a Master Smith free of charge. I expressed my gratitude at the offer but I love the one I had and I would love if he could simply fix it.

He called again a little bit ago and said he’s just finishing the scales and I’m all set. He said he sharpened it, took a piece of iron wood and chopped it a couple dozen times and no edge damage and still razor sharp. He said that’s far beyond what the knife is indended for. He said he expects a lot out of his neck knife and he’s never done that with it.

He did say something interesting. He said water stone sharpening and this steel are a match made in heaven. He said diamond and other media is completely unnecessary and excessive. He said that water creates viscosity between the steel and stone that really cushions and correctly removes the material. He said the fine grain of this steel should never be touched with rougher than a 1000 grit stone. He said after using all other steels it takes time to get your head wrapped around how good the wear resistance really is and yet how easy it is to sharpen and remove material. He said that’s the magic of white. He said blue steel is very different and some of the more harsh media’s can be used. He said white makes a finer grain finer edge, Blue is a harder use as it has elements added. He said white is see how far you can go and what you can really pull out of it and blue is just don’t mess it up cause it’s good to go. He said he can no longer tell the difference in wear resistance between the two but the white slices more keenly. He said the first 25 years of forging both he could tell a difference. “So I guess Ive improved after 17,000 knives”.

So, I’ll get my 1000-6000 stones back out and use those moving forward. I used to be really good on them.

He lastly apologized again and said he gets one back every once in a while. He said he’ll include something cool for me with knife. I thanked him and that was that.

Couldn’t be happier with the personal service from him, we had probably a combined 20 mins on the phone. Had my knofe turned around in 36 hours and back out. Hell of a guy. He is a master at what he does. You can tell speaking with him he truly lives it and puts his soul into it. He was truly upset that one left imperfect.
 
Thank you for that report back. It's nice to see how good people can turn a problem into a positive experience where we learn about knives and quality knife makers.

Awesome.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top