Myths About Damascus - Edge Retention, Sharpness, and History

When you write that Damascus steel does not have superior sharpness or edge retention, are you referring to Wootz steel or pattern welded? I had understood that these myths specifically referred to the Wootz steel swords of a specific era in comparison to their European counterparts.
 
Pomsbz said:
When you write that Damascus steel does not have superior sharpness or edge retention, are you referring to Wootz steel or pattern welded? I had understood that these myths specifically referred to the Wootz steel swords of a specific era in comparison to their European counterparts.
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Neither wootz nor pattern-welded steel have superior sharpness or edge retention to conventional steels. I wasn't making any claims about historical performance differences.
 
Larrin said:
I wrote an article on a handful of Damascus steel myths (it would be much longer if I covered them all).

Was Bill Moran the first to "rediscover" pattern welded steel?
Did Europeans name Wootz steel Damascus?
Is Damascus steel sharper? Hold an edge longer?

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/07/30/five-myths-about-damascus-steel/
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I knew some of this before but it is very nicely presented. I sent you a question using the form of your website last week. Did you get it?
 
I'd like to see data on damasteel one day. It's likely similar to that of cpm-154 aka rwl34 but would be neat to see the data.
 
Mo2 said:
I'd like to see data on damasteel one day. It's likely similar to that of cpm-154 aka rwl34 but would be neat to see the data.
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Yeah I would guess the catra results would be very similar but more tests are always fun. Maybe some toughness tests or something.
 
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Legendary_Jarl said:
I knew some of this before but it is very nicely presented. I sent you a question using the form of your website last week. Did you get it?
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I just looked it up and yes I did get your email and I remember reading it and I must have forgotten to respond. I’m usually better at replying to emails. Thanks for reminding me.
 
A well-written piece, as always. This'll save me a lot of time having to type out abbreviated versions of all that stuff whenever the subject comes up. Thanks!
 
Larrin said:
Neither wootz nor pattern-welded steel have superior sharpness or edge retention to conventional steels. I wasn't making any claims about historical performance differences.
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I can't agree with that... As a matter of fact, wootz knife may have superior sharpness and edge retention - better than conventional steels. I had a chance to see and try one and no other knife can compare to it, honestly! I think the most important is the maker, as not many people are able to make such wootz knife. But those who are skilled enought, make incredible knives, worth every price. Of course I have no idea how was it with wootz blades ages ago - we have only legends...
 
cutler81 said:
I can't agree with that... As a matter of fact, wootz knife may have superior sharpness and edge retention - better than conventional steels. I had a chance to see and try one and no other knife can compare to it, honestly! I think the most important is the maker, as not many people are able to make such wootz knife. But those who are skilled enought, make incredible knives, worth every price. Of course I have no idea how was it with wootz blades ages ago - we have only legends...
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
 
cutler81 said:
I can't agree with that... As a matter of fact, wootz knife may have superior sharpness and edge retention - better than conventional steels. I had a chance to see and try one and no other knife can compare to it, honestly! I think the most important is the maker, as not many people are able to make such wootz knife. But those who are skilled enought, make incredible knives, worth every price. Of course I have no idea how was it with wootz blades ages ago - we have only legends...
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Yes yes, and Frank Richtig's kitchen knives could be hammered through your wootz knives and still shave afterwards, though clearly both were far superior to modern metallurgy.

And let's not forget the thousand-times-folded differentially-hardened tamahagane katanas made by ancient Japanese sword smiths which were sharp enough to separate a man's soul from his body yet strong enough to hammer in ten thousand railroad spikes. These were also far superior to modern metallurgy with all its silly science and microscopic analysis and whatever.

/s
 
cutler81 said:
I can't agree with that... As a matter of fact, wootz knife may have superior sharpness and edge retention - better than conventional steels. I had a chance to see and try one and no other knife can compare to
it, honestly! I think the most important is the maker, as not many people are able to make such wootz knife. But those who are skilled enought, make incredible knives, worth every price. Of course I have no idea how was it with wootz blades ages ago - we have only legends...
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Thanks,
I agree.
Started researching twisted versus knotted Damascus & then Wootz and found this YouTube video that explains a lot, for me anyway.
Unless you have a true sample of verified wootz ore & or steel sample how can you even begin to compare or make assumptions...
 
One question has always plagued me about Damascus/pattern welded steel. I’ve raised the issue before and never gotten a real answer, but I assume this is a thread that will get a significant number of eyes on it from people who really know Damascus steel, so I'll ask it now.

Damascus steel is two or more steels all pounded and folded together over and over and then ground into a knife shape and HTed right? So since each individual steel that makes up the Damascus has its own optimal HT that brings out the best properties of that steel, how can one ever really do a "best practice" HT on Damascus steel? It would seem that the best you can do is pick steels to fold/pound that have relatively similar heat treats and then perform a heat treat that does a decent job on all, but not the best for any one of them in particular.

We make a huge deal here about how edge geometry and HT are as important if not more important than which steel you pick. Right? Because, just as an example, an excellently HTed VG10 could very well outperform a lousy HT on S90V, etc...

So ultimately, the question is, can a Damascus blade ever get optimal HTs for the steels of which it is made, or will it always just be a compromise? Obviously this question doesn't apply in cases with a single steel core, and Damascus laminated layers either side (i.e., Spyderco Damascus Delica with a VG10 core).
 
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