Native (BIG) Chief
- Thread starter sing
- Start date
Bobby Branton
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Me like um Chief too.
I also liked the credit card knife . It would be perfect for my wife. I liked the Ulu
also. The Martial folder with the rolling lock was too sweet.
The flat ground Titanium Police looked great.
I am also looking forward to the Spyder wrench. This was one engineering marvel.
What the heck, I liked them all.
Thanks to Sal and the whole Spyderco crew who took time to look over some of my rare Spydies and a few new pieces that I picked up. A special thanks to Joyce. Danelle, we missed you. We have to go to work early on
a plan to get you here next year.
Bobby
[This message has been edited by Knifeslinger (edited 13 June 1999).]
I also liked the credit card knife . It would be perfect for my wife. I liked the Ulu
also. The Martial folder with the rolling lock was too sweet.
The flat ground Titanium Police looked great.
I am also looking forward to the Spyder wrench. This was one engineering marvel.
What the heck, I liked them all.
Thanks to Sal and the whole Spyderco crew who took time to look over some of my rare Spydies and a few new pieces that I picked up. A special thanks to Joyce. Danelle, we missed you. We have to go to work early on
a plan to get you here next year.
Bobby
[This message has been edited by Knifeslinger (edited 13 June 1999).]
- Joined
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The heck with Y2K, D2K RULES (Danelle2K)
YES !
[This message has been edited by Brian Lavin (edited 14 June 1999).]
YES !
[This message has been edited by Brian Lavin (edited 14 June 1999).]
I missed y'all too, but it was not to be this time. Vince just got in, said you all were very nice, and he had fun meeting you. Im so jealous, I cant see straight! Hope everyone had a great time, and bought lots of cool stuff. I held down the fort and pouted. (ok, I didn't pout, but I did *sigh a lot)
Danelle
Danelle
Bobby's right, the MBCF looks real good with the refined rolling lock. I would like the upswept point dropped a tad bit though. I can imagine how the military will be when it comes out with that RL. The Keating concepts were nice too. Yes. Do get rid of the linerlock on them.
BTW, folks should check out Bobby's collection of spyderco's . He's got some cool stuff that Spyderco fans can drool over. He did some artistic customizing on some steel handle models too.
sing
BTW, folks should check out Bobby's collection of spyderco's . He's got some cool stuff that Spyderco fans can drool over. He did some artistic customizing on some steel handle models too.
sing
- Joined
- Feb 28, 1999
- Messages
- 91
Does anyone know what are the dimensions and weight of the Chief? I've been shopping around for a full sized folder and no matter how much I look elsewhere I wind up back here. I've got to add this one to the list of options.
Jack
Jack
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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- 11,619
Jack - Overall blade length = 3-15/16"
Overall length = 8-11/16"
Length closed = 4-13/16"
sal
Overall length = 8-11/16"
Length closed = 4-13/16"
sal
stjames
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While "The Native" is innocuous enough, after all, everyone born in North America is native of it; the reference is clearly taking on the implication toward those of aboriginal American ancestry. This is the most widely tolerated form of racial slur in the USA today, and should not be perpetuated further in any way. What other community has to tolerate being the mascot of a major league athletic team? While the members of that community have more than their share of work to do on this issue, the last thing any company should do is contribute to the mindset perpetuated by this type of marketing.
I write this with an exception and my sincere apologies to the members of the Armed Forces and Law Enforcement Agencies, where the title Chief is used properly, as part of the official command ranking system. If the name of this knife had been proposed as part of the Military line, it would have been an excellent choice.
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James
I write this with an exception and my sincere apologies to the members of the Armed Forces and Law Enforcement Agencies, where the title Chief is used properly, as part of the official command ranking system. If the name of this knife had been proposed as part of the Military line, it would have been an excellent choice.
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James
StJames,
With all due respect, I think you're taking either political correctness too far or are very Ameri-centric. Although the Random House Dictionary lists 8 definitions for the word "native," the basic meaning is "from a certain place by birth or origin" when used as a verb to describe a person, animal, plant, or idea; and "a person from a certain place by birth" when used as a noun. No mention is made of American Indians whatsoever.
The Spyderco Native is so-named because it was the first of their knives to see production in this country rather than Japan. The Chief is merely a play on words, recognizing the fairly accurate concept that "natives" (when used to describe aboriginal peoples) frequently have a simple patriarchal social structure with one individual as the leader. This is true in some cultures of the Congo, the Amazon basin, the Australian outback, and many other areas. It has no more inherent connection to American Indians than do bows or loincloths - both simple items found in primitive and some advanced cultures worldwide.
If Spyderco had decided to put a big, smiling "Redskin" with a feathered head-dress and a bottle of hooch on the knife's handle, I could understand being offended. But as it is, I feel the name is harmless.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
With all due respect, I think you're taking either political correctness too far or are very Ameri-centric. Although the Random House Dictionary lists 8 definitions for the word "native," the basic meaning is "from a certain place by birth or origin" when used as a verb to describe a person, animal, plant, or idea; and "a person from a certain place by birth" when used as a noun. No mention is made of American Indians whatsoever.
The Spyderco Native is so-named because it was the first of their knives to see production in this country rather than Japan. The Chief is merely a play on words, recognizing the fairly accurate concept that "natives" (when used to describe aboriginal peoples) frequently have a simple patriarchal social structure with one individual as the leader. This is true in some cultures of the Congo, the Amazon basin, the Australian outback, and many other areas. It has no more inherent connection to American Indians than do bows or loincloths - both simple items found in primitive and some advanced cultures worldwide.
If Spyderco had decided to put a big, smiling "Redskin" with a feathered head-dress and a bottle of hooch on the knife's handle, I could understand being offended. But as it is, I feel the name is harmless.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
StJames,
Corduroy said it much more diplomaticly than I would have. Speaking as an Irish/Menomonie I have to see and here all sorts of crap. So I'll tell you, that I find the "drunk Irishman" business far more offensive than when someone says," How, Chief, you wantum smoke peace pipe?" Or be a sports team mascot.
Some Band members and others are always looking for an excuse to be offended by something or sombody.
So I'll tell you and anyone else who are so concerned about PC.....Get a life!
There are lots of different Native Chiefs around, and this one seems to be Classie!
(Said with a smile) 'course I could go out to the left coast and get really drunk, get up a fightin' urge and scalp ya.
Dan
Corduroy said it much more diplomaticly than I would have. Speaking as an Irish/Menomonie I have to see and here all sorts of crap. So I'll tell you, that I find the "drunk Irishman" business far more offensive than when someone says," How, Chief, you wantum smoke peace pipe?" Or be a sports team mascot.
Some Band members and others are always looking for an excuse to be offended by something or sombody.
So I'll tell you and anyone else who are so concerned about PC.....Get a life!
There are lots of different Native Chiefs around, and this one seems to be Classie!
(Said with a smile) 'course I could go out to the left coast and get really drunk, get up a fightin' urge and scalp ya.
Dan
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 648
To put this discussion in perspective, in the thread on the <a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000125.html">Bladeforums Spyderco Special Addition</a>, Sal wrote:
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Take care,
Clay
Don't worry that the world might end tomorrow....in Australia it's tomorrow already.
[This message has been edited by Clay Kesting (edited 17 June 1999).]
With that in mind, what should the larger model be called?
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Take care,
Clay
Don't worry that the world might end tomorrow....in Australia it's tomorrow already.
[This message has been edited by Clay Kesting (edited 17 June 1999).]
stjames
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It is nice to hear that the intent was honorable, but the history between the "Native Americans" and the Europeans that arrived in this continent is full of honorable intentions. The Christian missionaries who spread disease as they attempted to save the Souls of people around the world certainly had the most honorable of intentions.
It seems obvious from this thread what the name refers to, and Sal's statements have removed any doubt. No matter the intent, this type of marketing is inappropriate, even if it lacks a tomahawk chop or "a big, smiling "Redskin" with a feathered head-dress and a bottle of hooch on the knife's handle". The fact is it cannot help but do more harm than good, and continuing this line of marketing would just aggravate the situation.
And gentlemen, don't assume too much from what I thought was a simple post about knife marketing, either about my feelings on the issue or my background in general. I was very specific in my concerns about the continued perceptions in this country regarding "Native Americans", and feel that no company, no matter the intentions, should help perpetuate them.
Dan, my grandmother always hated that ugly "leprechaun" cavorting on the sidelines at Celtics games. She thought it was undignified, no matter that a whole city of her fellow Irish Americans seems fine with the idea. Would you feel the same way if everyone in the stands at a British football game got up and did the "Drunken Mick Stumble"? Or would it make you just as angry as my other grandmother became every time she heard the name "Red Skin" tossed off the lips of a sports announcer like it meant nothing. I guess it doesn't, to most people, but try and toss any other racial epitaph into your everyday conversation and see what happens. You might be more offended by a slur aimed at your own ethnic group or social sect, but it does not make any of them acceptable.
It is not about political correctness, it is about pride. Pride in where you come from, and how you use what you've inherited to make your own way in life. So please wipe that smile off your face when you threaten to come to my home and take my scalp. That was a practice introduced by the French to allow early settler to collect bounty on the "natives" they had killed, a rather barbaric custom. Not one to be taken in jest.
I happen to own two fine Leather sheathes, made by Gary Graley, with a very dignified profile of a "Native Chief" in full headdress imprinted on the leather. I wear them proudly.
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James
It seems obvious from this thread what the name refers to, and Sal's statements have removed any doubt. No matter the intent, this type of marketing is inappropriate, even if it lacks a tomahawk chop or "a big, smiling "Redskin" with a feathered head-dress and a bottle of hooch on the knife's handle". The fact is it cannot help but do more harm than good, and continuing this line of marketing would just aggravate the situation.
And gentlemen, don't assume too much from what I thought was a simple post about knife marketing, either about my feelings on the issue or my background in general. I was very specific in my concerns about the continued perceptions in this country regarding "Native Americans", and feel that no company, no matter the intentions, should help perpetuate them.
Dan, my grandmother always hated that ugly "leprechaun" cavorting on the sidelines at Celtics games. She thought it was undignified, no matter that a whole city of her fellow Irish Americans seems fine with the idea. Would you feel the same way if everyone in the stands at a British football game got up and did the "Drunken Mick Stumble"? Or would it make you just as angry as my other grandmother became every time she heard the name "Red Skin" tossed off the lips of a sports announcer like it meant nothing. I guess it doesn't, to most people, but try and toss any other racial epitaph into your everyday conversation and see what happens. You might be more offended by a slur aimed at your own ethnic group or social sect, but it does not make any of them acceptable.
It is not about political correctness, it is about pride. Pride in where you come from, and how you use what you've inherited to make your own way in life. So please wipe that smile off your face when you threaten to come to my home and take my scalp. That was a practice introduced by the French to allow early settler to collect bounty on the "natives" they had killed, a rather barbaric custom. Not one to be taken in jest.
I happen to own two fine Leather sheathes, made by Gary Graley, with a very dignified profile of a "Native Chief" in full headdress imprinted on the leather. I wear them proudly.
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James
- Joined
- Jan 18, 1999
- Messages
- 345
James,
I don't quite get it.
A "Native Chief" sheath is something to be worn with pride,
but a "Native Chief" knife is some sort of insult.
If we put the "Native Chief" knife inside the "Native Chief" sheath,
would we "break even"?
Also, the people who will benefit from Spyderco's Native American
Fund might tell you, not so politely, to mind your own business.
Yes, some Christian missionaries spread disease.
Some French people introduced scalping.
Some Native Americans massacred innocent settlers.
It happened a long time ago.
It's time to move on.
Doc
I don't quite get it.
A "Native Chief" sheath is something to be worn with pride,
but a "Native Chief" knife is some sort of insult.
If we put the "Native Chief" knife inside the "Native Chief" sheath,
would we "break even"?
Also, the people who will benefit from Spyderco's Native American
Fund might tell you, not so politely, to mind your own business.
Yes, some Christian missionaries spread disease.
Some French people introduced scalping.
Some Native Americans massacred innocent settlers.
It happened a long time ago.
It's time to move on.
Doc
stjames
Sebenzanista
- Joined
- Oct 26, 1998
- Messages
- 6,465
I am sorry to see that this issue has become so personal. I by no means attempted to bring ones personal tastes and believes into the issue, my intention was to bring to mind that as a major corporation, Spyderco should avoid any marketing ploy that would be considered offensive or detrimental to any group of people. As a corporate entity, they are held to a higher public standard than an individual, who has a right to say and feel as they please. I take pride in certain personal possessions that give me a connection to my past, and by no means endorse some sort of ban on the use of names or images connected with it. Mass marketing a knife, sports team, SUV, or what have you, and using an ethnic group as part of the promotion is another matter. It became my business when they made the decision to do so, no matter who elses approval they sought.
That it has engendered such strong feelings shows just why the issue should be avoided in the first place. I had no problems with the, as I said, rather innocuous name of the Native. But when you start adding Chief or Papoose to it, you begin to enter questionable territory. Believe me, if I just wanted to start being argumentative I would have gone after the CRKT Apache instead.
It is time to move on, and leave the general acceptance of this attitude behind.
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James
That it has engendered such strong feelings shows just why the issue should be avoided in the first place. I had no problems with the, as I said, rather innocuous name of the Native. But when you start adding Chief or Papoose to it, you begin to enter questionable territory. Believe me, if I just wanted to start being argumentative I would have gone after the CRKT Apache instead.
It is time to move on, and leave the general acceptance of this attitude behind.
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James
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 3,264
Probably best to come up with another name. No need to annoy potential customers, and what annoys people isn't always completely logical, perhaps because neither is history.
For contrast, how about Stranger? There's a biblical injunction to be kind to strangers.
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
For contrast, how about Stranger? There's a biblical injunction to be kind to strangers.
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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StJames - If it's personal and you feel that strongly, then it's important. Thanx for the input. Some of us are not proud of history. (Japan & China, Germany & jews, Europeans & Native Americans, Europeans & African Americans). Better to make amends and improve, than to harbor bitters that eat you from the inside out. We learn from our forefathers, but we are NOT our forefathers. Your point is well taken for which I personally thank you. This is personal with me as well. Innocently causing another's discomfort may be forgivable, but knowledge makes the difference.
OK Guys & Gals, Should this model be a go, what to call it is next?
sal
OK Guys & Gals, Should this model be a go, what to call it is next?
sal