`Need some newb advice on heat treating and tempering?

awareunlikeu

awareunlikeu

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2014
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514
Hey BF bladesmiths! I am wanting to finally get into blade smithing myself. I have done a few little blades out of ferrier rasps and whatnot, but want to dive into this and make a real go of this profession! I want to forge with High Carbon steels but do not have the best place to put a forge at the moment so stock removal will be what I start with until I can build a proper forge and learn the hammer and anvil. My question is I know heat treating is completely different than tempering that is used to re harden the blade. Is there a heat treat oven that does both heat treat where I can pull the steel out hammer and quench, that also will temper the blade for rehardeneing later in the process? ? Then I would just use my oven for tempering correct? Essentially, I am just trying to find out if I bought one of these: http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/product_info.php?cPath=659_221_623&products_id=675

If I could just heat my high carbon steel and then hammer on a anvil to shape, and then later after creating grinds, temper in same oven? Also, once I have played around with the high carbon steels and want to move to the CPM 3V's etc... An oven like above will be able to heat treat and temper the "super steels"as well correct? Any other recommendations you may have for heat treat ovens other than this I am certainly all ears! IM about to order one of these an a Wilmont LB1000 to get this passion off the ground! Thanks so much for any help
 
don't know your location, but hi. you should be happy with the LB1000, I have had mine for almost 3 years and have never had any issues. save your pennies and get a 3 phase motor and VFD, whether from Wilmont or eBay. You should read the heat treat stickies here and these http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?22568-Your-Heat-Treating-Tool-Box. You are talking about 3 different processes. Forging is done at high heat(1700 to 1900F) where the steel becomes easier to shape. Hardening is done at a temperature dependent on the steel used, most high carbon steel is 1450-1500F. Tempering is done at a third set of temperatures, for high carbon steel 300 to 450F. I use a toaster over for tempering, a regular stove works also. good luck.
scott
 
Using a kiln for forging is not a good idea, the recovery time would be long and I would not recommend sticking steel held in tong into a kiln where the elements are running. The chance of getting electrocuted is high. The evenheat is a great kiln,I've had mine for 9-10 years and have had no problems with it.
But then again I've never tried tried to use it for a forge.
Also search here for heat treating and do more reading.
Forging is one step,normalizing is another,neither of them are heat treating.
tempering is a part of a heat treating cycle.
 
Okay thank you guys for your input. So basically from your all's response, I should get the heat treat oven/kiln like the even Heat for all of the heat processes other than the actual forging? but I still need to be able to forge the actual blade. What if I'm only doing stock removal at first until I can get somewhere to set up a forge, will the even heat oven suffice for all my heat treating and annealing needs if I'm just doing stock removal? I want to go ahead and get my hands dirty and get some of my major tools purchased and get a few blade designs created and once I have the place build a proper Forge but until then stock removal. Just want to make sure that one of these evenheat ovens or alike will do everything I need as far as the heat process for my blades? Thank you so much again sorry if this sounds jumbled it all I'm using speech to text while driving

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk
 
My suggestion is to invest your money in the grinder and steel and handle material to start. Do sock removal only and just send your blades to Peters Heattreating or one of the other companies that do heat treating. doing batches of 10 or more makes this a reasonable option in cost.
Work on fit and finish and turning out a good knife,then later get into the heat treat part.
 
That oven you are thinking about will cost you a pretty penny which you could first use to spend on other equipment like a decent grinder which will offer you much more early on. Furthermore that oven will take so long to heat the damn steel you will lose patience fairly quickly if you want to smith with it, you can get tops around 30-45 seconds worth of hammer time in each heat, that oven could take 10 minutes to re-heat the steel.

If you are going to only use simple carbon steel I'd recommend using a simple, cheap and easy to make coal or gas forge to begin with. You can build one of these forges for around $50 which will be able to re-heat the steel in two minutes and get you back to hammering in no time. Furthermore with only simple carbon steels like 0-1, 5160, 1084, etc. you don't need to be particularly accurate oven to get a nice quench. Although if you are still concerned about your ability to treat the steel on your own you can, as others suggest, send your finished blades off to a third party to get it professionally done.

However if you are just looking into stock removal then this could be a viable option. However I'd still spend the money first on a grinder if I were you. You can make a very simple and small forge out of a propane torch and a soft firebrick for HTing carbon steels in the mean time.

It also occurs to me that you may still be a little perplexed about the magic of hardening steel, I was for a while, I'd highly recommend the 20 minutes or so it takes to watch this video to clear the process up.
 
Callum.D said:
That oven you are thinking about will cost you a pretty penny which you could first use to spend on other equipment like a decent grinder which will offer you much more early on. Furthermore that oven will take so long to heat the damn steel you will lose patience fairly quickly if you want to smith with it, you can get tops around 30-45 seconds worth of hammer time in each heat, that oven could take 10 minutes to re-heat the steel.

If you are going to only use simple carbon steel I'd recommend using a simple, cheap and easy to make coal or gas forge to begin with. You can build one of these forges for around $50 which will be able to re-heat the steel in two minutes and get you back to hammering in no time. Furthermore with only simple carbon steels like 0-1, 5160, 1084, etc. you don't need to be particularly accurate oven to get a nice quench. Although if you are still concerned about your ability to treat the steel on your own you can, as others suggest, send your finished blades off to a third party to get it professionally done.

However if you are just looking into stock removal then this could be a viable option. However I'd still spend the money first on a grinder if I were you. You can make a very simple and small forge out of a propane torch and a soft firebrick for HTing carbon steels in the mean time.

It also occurs to me that you may still be a little perplexed about the magic of hardening steel, I was for a while, I'd highly recommend the 20 minutes or so it takes to watch this video to clear the process up.
Click to expand...
Thanks SO Very Much! I still need to obviously research a little bit more into the three heat treatment steps as I am very very aware that heat treatment is the single most important processes of producing any blade! but after further research and you're alls advice, I'm going to get this even here:

http://www.paragonweb.com/Xpress-KM-14.cfm

It is the Paragon Xpress-KM-14 with the Sentry 12-key controller as it is what appears to me to be an oven that I will never outgrow even if I turn this into a full-time career one day hopefully. Just too hit the ground running I'm going to be doing stock removal , and taking your all's advice and building a small Forge as I can gather tools and am perfecting and honing my skills on my grinder and playing around with the heat treats and different handle material.

I guess my final question to you fine gentlemen would be should I spend a couple extra hundred dollars and get the larger paragon? The KM-24 to be exact? Starting out I'm just going to be working with high carbon steels and focusing my designs around performance-based fixed blades, then I want to move into tomahawks and way way later, folders. It would seem like the KM-14 would be large enough to properly treat at least a 13 inch Full tang Hawk or large chopper?

The other reason I am going on ahead and buying a master level oven is I also want to move into the Exotic Steels eventually as 3v is my all-time favorite and I consider it real life adamantium!😉 3v is what really pushed me over the edge some years ago when I got my first survive 5.1 , and I recently just purchased the SRK in 3v and can put it through the same amount of abuse as my 5.1 and it just asks for more! I've literally taken my SRK through a hood of a truck, hit the engine block and it did nothing to my blade accept mess with the paint job a little bit! It's just absolutely incredible what Smith's can produce with the super steels, or hell even a excellently he treated 1095.

IN closing, I know this seems way too ambitious with equipment that no beginner needs starting out like me, and it may seem that I have the new "Bladesmith adrenaline" running through my veins and wanting to become a Smith overnight using high-end equipment instead of practice and grit, but I assure you I want to master this craft and produce HIGHLY functional works of art and have always employed the "buy once cry once" standard when making serious purchases! I would ascertain that buying a LB1000, and a KM series oven will be two of the most critical pieces of Hardware I need at making this dream a reality! Is an LB1000 still the best Buy for the money currently in 2016 ? It seems like the baders and kmg's are just prettier and perhaps made with a bit better materials , but will do the same exact things as my LB1000 ? The close friend I am sharing my shop with has a background as a machinist and is heavily involved in The Woodworking trade and knows how to turn d engine used for the LB00 into A variable speed motor without issue .

Any other recommendations you guys could give me I'm all ears and if anyone is in the Lexington Kentucky or surrounding area, let me know if you ever have time or room for me to Apprentice black/bladesmithing? You guys are incredible and again thank you so much for your guidance and wisdom, bladeforums never ceases to amaze me!

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk
 
From a newer knifemaker who does this part time/hobby:

First: Go slow! Its easy to get discouraged by spending thousands of dollars on equipment and not get the results you want because well frankly you haven't done it or used it. I don't say this to be rude, i did this very thing and it almost burned me out of knifemaking in general. Equipment will not make you a good knifemaker, it will make you a faster knifemaker - that can be either bad or good.

Second: New guys - myself included - assume that grinding knives is easy. To be honest that is one of the hardest most frustrating parts. Focus on grinding blades and spend more money on steel and belts than on an oven. Heat treat services are not that expensive for what you get - which is pretty much perfect heat treating. They can also do things you cannot yet, a plethora of steels, RC testing, cryo etc.

Third: There are dozens of 2x72"s and its arguable to the point of there being 50+ threads on here about which is "the best for you money". I have two, both are great, which is the best for the money? The two i own are the best because i own them. The point here is to get what you need now and don't be cheap.

Fourth: I'm sure the Count will reply to this thread as well so i'll say it now, read the stickeys, and the Count's standard reply to new knifemakers. 2nd post: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...reads-All-The-Good-Info-You-Want-In-One-Place

Fifth: Slow down. Seriously! Don't burn out. Get some 1080 or 1084, grind it into shape. Heat treat treat it in a simple two brick forge or say an Atlas mini and see how you like it and what it takes.

Knifemaking is a blast. But it's easy to get way ahead of yourself. Trust me, i've done it and so have dozens of others members here.

Ryan
 
I think the folks who are saying "go slow" have good advice. I do think if budget wasn't an issue - and since you're looking at a 2X72 grinder and a top of line oven at same time, budget is in good shape? With that said, I "think" I'd rather spend my money on a top of line grinder and send blades out of HT to start, then move into the oven. The oven and a hardness tester sorta go hand in hand.

The LB1000 will work.

You wrote "knows how to turn d engine used for the LB00 into A variable speed motor without issue ", not sure what you mean here - are you saying he can thru that single phase motor into a variable speed motor? For a variable speed on a 2X72 grinder a 3 ph motor with VFD is about the best (perhaps only?) way by far. Well, you could go with a DC motor, but usually that's not the best option if buying motor and controller new.

Ken H>
 
I agree completely with ryobales advice above. It is easy to buy equipment - just takes money. I am a "gear queer" myself, so I get it. But if your goal is to actually earn a living making knives, you may want to first develop your skills and patience as a knifemaker to be sure you enjoy it and can turn out a product worthy of selling. A shop full of the best equipment cannot create a quality knife without skill, patience and dedication. I am a civil engineer by schooling and I truly enjoy the craft. I have been doing stock removal for about 4 years now and I very recently acquired an anvil, an ancient leg vice and am about to buy a propane forge and launch into some work with railroad spikes. The amount of equipment in my shop has definitely increased (ask my wife!) over the years, but I still have many things to learn and skills to develop to allow me to create the fine fit and finish that I see other knifemakers have in order to sell a knife for a price that will pay minimum wage for the time spent. For me, it is a hobby and I have given away many knives to friends and family and to charity auctions, etc as I develop my skills. I know it may seem like "the chicken and the egg thing" - I need lots of the best equipment to make a fine knife. Indeed a good belt grinder (I have a Pheer which has been excellent) is a must, but I would start there and design a few knives and grind 'em out and send out for heat treat and work on handle design and fab. Nominal starting costs. Not to discourage, but unless someone has a lot of raw talent and patience and is willing to put in the time, it seems to be a difficult way to make a living. I think Jay Fischer says he makes about $15/hr even given the very high quality of his work. I am a Jay Fischer fan BTW. Seems like this old saying applies pretty well to knife making - the best way to make $2 million dollars in knife making is to start with $1 million! Again, not to discourage, and I do not know your entire situation, but the "slow down" advice above is correct. It is a wonderful journey. Enjoy!
 
Newbees should always jump in full force buying expensive tools etc.
Fast forward, for whatever reason, Newbee lost interest.
Sells off at a huge loss to a guy legitimately interested in metalworking, taking it slow learn & accumulate fashion.

Fwiw, Is a hidden message there ?
dammed if I know what it is...
 
awareunlikeu said:
Hey BF bladesmiths! I am wanting to finally get into blade smithing myself. I have done a few little blades out of ferrier rasps and whatnot, but want to dive into this and make a real go of this profession! I want to lforge with High Carbon steels but do not have the best place to put a forge at the moment so stock removal will be what I start with until I can build a proper forge and learn the hammer and anvil. My question is I know heat treating is completely different than tempering that is used to re harden the blade. Is there a heat treat oven that does both heat treat where I can pull the steel out hammer and quench, that also will temper the blade for rehardeneing later in the process? ? Then I would just use my oven for tempering correct? Essentially, I am just trying to find out if I bought one of these: http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/product_info.php?cPath=659_221_623&products_id=675

If I could just heat my high carbon steel and then hammer on a anvil to shape, and then later after creating grinds, temper in same oven? Also, once I have played around with the high carbon steels and want to move to the CPM 3V's etc... An oven like above will be able to heat treat and temper the "super steels"as well correct? Any other recommendations you may have for heat treat ovens other than this I am certainly all ears! IM about to order one of these an a Wilmont LB1000 to get this passion off the ground! Thanks so much for any help
Click to expand...

Tempering is a step in the heat treat process, the last step.

Take a look in the stickies. In basic terms, austentizing is getting the steel to the heat treat temperature. After the appropriate soak time at temp, the steel is quenched in the right medium for that steel. Then the steel is tempered to reduce hardness and relieve stress so it isn't so brittle. There is a lot more to it, but that's the simplest explanation I can give.
 
It's easy to drop $10,000 to $20,000 on equipment in a hurry to set up a nice shop. You can make a few knives and see if you really like doing it for a lot less. Much of the process is tedious detail work, quite boring actually. It's a great hobby business, but a lousy sole source of income.

Make a few knives. If you don't mind the tedious work, then invest in equipment to make the process more efficient. Send the first few out for heat treat, or find local knifemakers who are interested in showing you the process. A forge with a thermocouple is relatively cheap, and can obviously be used for forging if you later buy an oven. You do need an oven for higher alloy steels.
 
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