Need your help on a supposedly "authentic" japanese tanto...

aXed

aXed

Joined
May 1, 2002
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A very new friend of mine showed me the 8" blade of a supposedly real authentic japanese tanto sword. when he pulled it out, there was a big rust spot about 3" from the tang and that's why i have it because he wanted me to restore it. the question is, how do i know that it's a REAL sword? he told me he got it in the states for i don't remember how much... which would make it easier, unless he got stuped. but according to him, the blade has been folded 1000 times and hand sharpened with the however many grits that swords need. the edge however is very dull, close the quality of the United swords. i noticed on the tang under a lot of rust, there were a few numbers inscribed in there. one says "144" and the other "E 081" and that got me wondering why a real sword would have those numbers inscribed on the tang.
can anyone tell me what specific features an authentic japanese sword would have? i always thought that you couldn't even breathe on the blade or else rust would form almost instataneously, or is that just an old tale?

thanks
aXed
 
There are many variations on Japanese tanto. However, it would be much easier to help if you could provide us with a picture or two to show us the shaping of the piece. Lessee though...some common rules...

A good Japanese tanto will usually have a noticeable hamon, or patterned line differentiating hard and soft steel. It will look milky white and in some blades be very coarse and grainy. If it looks ground on or simply etched in, it is likely fake.

A good Japanese tanto will not have a secondary edge bevel. The "grind" goes all the way to the very edge. If it has a secondary bevel, it was either damaged, or it is not a real tanto.

A good Japanese tanto will be able to show hada, or forge-welded grain much the same way as can be seen in modern damascus blades. This pattern can be very fine, and some blades from various periods don't show any grain at all. If it does not have visible hada, do not consider that a telltale sign, but if it does, it helps the validity.

People who buy the "folded 1000 times" thing and talk about it in that way are often being conned into crap. Blades are not folded 1000 times. Just doesn't work that way. Of course it could be construed as a clever way to explain why it may not show any grain! :D

There are lots of "rules" but each one has many many exceptions. If you look at enough tanto you will start to see what "is" and what "is not" tanto.

If it is an authentic Japanese tanto, it would probably be worthwhile to get it appraised by someone who is competent at kantei. If it is a worthwhile blade, you should send it to Japan or to a very few select westerners for polish. Doing it yourself without good knowledge of kantei or Japanese sword polishing is actually a good way to damage a sword, and I don't think that would be the goal :)

Hope that helps a little bit...would appreciate pics so we could help more...
 
Geez, if you folded a blade a thousand times I wonder how many billion layers you would have (I am too lazy to work that out myself). All I know is that all you have to do to get 1024 layers is to fold the steel over 10 times.

Anyhow, I can't help you authenticate that tanto. If you could provide some pictures that would give someone like Robert a better chance of helping you though.
 
Well Keith, the math is a little iffy when it comes to layer count in Japanese blades.

Your number is hypothetically true if you start with a single bar of steel and fold it onto itself. Up that bar to 3 layers in the initial billet and 10 folds will give you a hypothetical 3072 layers, correct? 8 layer billet will yield 8192. Japanese smiths do not necessarily just take a single layer billet and fold that onto itself, they often use multiple layers.

That said, what constitutes a single "layer" that goes into a billet? Tamahagane before it's all welded together is basically in little chunks (broken). If each of those layers is made up of about 20 individual pieces (just throwing out a number at the moment), it sorta takes some of the validity away from the whole "how many layers" idea.

Not to mention when dealing with layers this small and heats that are exposed to oxygen, there will inevitably be layers lost in scale/oxidation. How much loss changes from blade to blade, so getting an exact number like 8192 is almost misleading.

It does make for nice marketing though at times...:D

PS: sorry if that was inarticulate, I am rushing and a bit tired :)
 
thanks! i really appreciate the info you gave me although i am still very unsure. i really wish i could get a hold of a digi cam so i could show this thing to you! :mad:

as far as the hamon goes, i do see one, it's along the edge of the blade and it looks milky. it looks like it's a part of the blade, not etched on.

as far as the grain goes, i have no idea. and the bevel bit, i don't quite understand, could you please explain a little bit further mr Marotz?

thanks!
aXed

meanwhile, i'll try to get my hands on a digi cam
 
The hamon on typical tanto will be between 1/4 and 1/2 the distance between the edge and the spine. Let me post a pic to illustrate. The hamon should be fairly apparent...

smbrum4.jpg


Also look at the edge itself. On the vast majority of knives, there is what is called a secondary bevel. It is created after the blade itself is shaped, by grinding at a steeper angle. When you sharpen your knives, the secondary bevel is what you are working with. I don't have any illustrations at the moment that demonstrate this better, but I hope the description makes some sense.

Japanese blades do not have the secondary bevel. The "grind" that creates the cross section is a smooth convex bevel that goes all the way to the very edge. In this way, you cannot simply sharpen it with normal sharpening tools, because you will put a secondary bevel on it. It is added and sharpened through the sword polishing process...which would also be responsible for removing rust if you were to have it done :D

Hope that clarified a little bit.
 
S is number of layers in the billet
N is number of times folded (0 being an infolded billet)

S*2^N

I guess that the number might mean something, if anything it would just mean that folding it once more would make a large change in the number of layers.

I read that the reason the steel was folded was to give it a more even composition is this true?
 
Tamahagane (Japanese steel used in swords) was forge-welded repeatedly primarily to squeeze out impurities in the steel (the processes to make tamahagane and make the billets did not leave one with very clean steel).

Another primary reason is the one you mentioned, distribution of elements in the blade. Relative consistency in the blade is necessary for control over the heat treatment, which is one of the most important factors in "performance."

Today's steels do not need forge-welding processes for a practical value. They are very clean and consistent already and make wonderful blades (though many of the top choice sword steels are disappearing!), so folding does not improve the steel, except in terms of aesthetics.
 
(though many of the top choice sword steels are disappearing!),
Mr Marotz would you explain what you meant by this? I am interested in knowing what makes a good steel for swords, and what steels are out there. My understanding is that in a sword, shock resistance is more important than edge holding, although having a cutting implement that is sharp would certainly be a plus.
Thanks:confused:
 
The North American Japanese-style sword folks tend to be biased towards simple, shallow-hardening steels or steels with low alloy content (W1/W2, 10xx, etc). It is harder and harder to find W2 steel at all, and steels like the 10xx are gradually being made more and more impure as they tend to be remelt. More manganese than desired is added to the 10xx series, and in low-Mn like 1095, there are often serious problems with consistency. Crucible's Black Diamond W1 is pretty tough to find these days, and normal W1 has some problems with it. 10xx grades that would be close to optimal like 1078 are hardly ever found. O2 was enjoyed by quite a few makers and is now pretty much extinct. Some of these steels are going the way of rag micarta.

Industry is gradually phasing out simple steels, and as a result, it is becoming harder to find them. There are varieties one can find in Japan and Europe that show a lot of promise as sword steels but ordering it is somewhat of an inconvenience (perhaps an understatement).

There are a number of makers considering having custom smelts done, but these are often sold in the tons, so financial resources become a major element. Some makers are going a different way and making their own steels. Some continue to work with standard steels like 1084 and 1050.

I'm not saying it's impossible to get good steel for Japanese-style swords, but many choice steels are disappearing from the US market. It is unlikely that a new steel will come out in the near future that will make Japanese-style makers happy, so it is a little saddening.
 
aXed - so what conclusion did you come to about that 'real, authentic, Japanese sword'?
Have you had a chance to pursue this further?
 
oh my goodness, you've been SO helpful Mr. Marotz! thank you so much for that picture! to be honest, at first i didn't believe that the tanto was real, but just comparing the hamon and the single bevel, i'm leaning closer to the authentic side. in this case :D because that means i'm holding a real japanese tanto in my hands! shhweeeet...

anyhoo, i apologize for leaving this thread for so long, i absolutely appreciate all your help guys! i was going to return the blade to him today, but i had a change of plans, but i'll be parting with it tomorrow *sigh*

maybe i can sneak in some real pics before i return it... hmmmm

aXed
 
Heya, glad I and others were able to offer some help! Whenever you can, get us some good pics :D If this thread falls too far into the background (which happens, this is a busy forum!), feel free to post in the Sword Discussion Forum :)

It's a shame you gotta give it back, but if you believe it's authentic, there are resources that you can find to cover basic blade maintenance and upkeep so issues with rust or stains do not get worse!

A good resource to start with is http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/care.htm and has a few links to expound on care and upkeep...it is not absolutely necessary to buy a kit if your friend does not feel inclined to spend much money...as long as you have pure mineral oil (if you do not have Choji) and a clean rag or tissue paper that will not scratch the surface, you are OK.

Get back to us with pics! :D
 
Just as a side note, there are companies willing to do special melts of steel to customer specs. www.steelforge.com is one. I checked their site a while ago, and they will even vacuum melt the steel if you want. I don't think you have to buy thousands of pounds of steel either; I remember reading that a couple hundred pounds is all they require. That's do-able for most of us, even if a couple people have to chip in to make up the couple hundred pounds.
 
aXed: whether you feel that it's real or not, actually go get a pro to figure out whether it is real. Even if it looks like a real one, how would you describe the numbers and letters inscribed on one?
Also, if it's a real Japanese sword, don't ever clean off the rust on the tang.
 
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