New Fighting Tomahawk Designs

D

DWinkler

Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
218
This is a picture of a couple of Fighting Tomahawk designs I am doing for the Sayoc Tactical Group. Coop showed them with his pictures from the New York Show so I thought I would explain how they came about.

For the past few years, as many of you know, I have been making Combat/Breaching belt axes for both the US Naval Special Warfare and US Army Special Operations. I even have a program that allows interested individuals the opportunity to provide an axe for one of these Special Operations Operators.

The Sayoc Tactical Group is an organization that has been involved with teaching tomahawk and edged weapons combatives to the Naval Special Warfare Operators. I was introduced to the Sayoc Group by some of the Operators that have axes I made. Sayoc was interested in developing a couple of axe designs and provided me with ideas and drawings for what they wanted produced. The picture shows the 2 most recent prototypes that were approved by Sayoc with a slight change to the lower handgrip. Both designs will be available from Sayoc and will be made by me.

The steel is ¼” S - 7 and will have a full tapered tang. Available handle materials will be Re-cycled Rubber, Maple and an up-graded version with high grade Curly Maple with Tribal symbols. The carrier is felt lined Kydex with an adjustable locking belt clip.

For more information you can send me an email: daniel@winklerknives.com

Daniel Winkler
Winkler_NY08-00-ww.jpg
 
These are really great! I appear to be a little bit more than just a tomahawk.....maybe a Kali-like name would really set them off.. I
LOVE it.

Best
Dwight
 
I like the fact that they are full tang. Does anyone know the price please?
 
now maybe the Sayoc guys will put out that hawk dvd that we have been waiting on.;)
 
Thank you for all the comments about these axes. It has been a real learning experience working with guys that use tools like this. Rafael Kayanan from Sayoc did most of the design work based on his interaction with Special Forces Operators. That along with the work I have been doing and my experience making Tomahawks and working hatchets really came together in making this project a reality. Very soon there will be an order page on the Sayoc web site offering the hawks. Production will be somewhat limited and prices will probably be around $575 to $725 depending on features and handle material ordered. I’ll do post when they are available for order.

Every aspect of the design of these Hawks have been developed based on direct feedback from the actual users. Weight, balance, grips, materials, size, the curve of the blade and the spike and other details has been taken into consideration. From all that I have seen these axe designs are the most thoroughly researched designs available for close quarter axe combat. No detail was left unattended because of cost or difficulty to produce.

This is some of what Rafael had to say about the designs:

Mainly the hawk is designed for users who are master shooters. They have logged thousands of hours in their muscle memory to be quick, super accurate and have developed tactics that fit with it seamlessly. So the ergonomics and shape of the hawk and handle is designed for them. As you know, much of what I added and changed from the traditional hawks is due to their needs and constant feedback. The R&D hawks are just as effective held high under the head or at the regular grip points. I can honestly say that the hawk could not have reached this state of design without the generous input of numerous individuals who due to their line of work will never get the public recognition for their service that they deserve. Thus, it also answers why this hawk does not have a
"kali" name attached to it. Because its been a group effort for a common cause.

These axe designs are brand-new and the first time they were shown was at the recent New York Custom Knife Show, then here. I have close to 200 belt axes in the field now with Special Forces Operators. Rafael has been involved with training these guys a long time and has logged many hours researching their needs. I can’t tell you how pleased I am to have this opportunity to work with Rafael and Sayoc on this project. We are making these axes available to our Military and the public because having public support and involvement is very important and these guys out there in harms way need all the support we can give them.

Daniel

I understand Rafael is planning a new DVD now for use with these Hawks.
 
I REALLY like the handle design and they really look cool but can someone explain the head design? It doesn't look very practical to me. The sweep or cutting angle seems to be opposite of something like the Vietnam hawk or actually most any hawk that I've seen.
 
Daniel,

I like both designs. I'm sure the rubber handle is great for a user.

RE:


For the past few years, as many of you know, I have been making Combat/Breaching belt axes for both the US Naval Special Warfare and US Army Special Operations. I even have a program that allows interested individuals the opportunity to provide an axe for one of these Special Operations Operators.
Click to expand...
I want to thank you for supporting the Troops who actually get to use these hawks. I think that this program is a great idea.

Jim Treacy
 
The head is designed primarily as a fighting weapon to be used both with a swing like a regular tomahawk, and as more of a slashing type weapon when held by the grip area just under the head. The forward spike is designed to cause a lot of damage when the need arises. Make no mistake, these designs were developed for guys that have a real need for a weapon with these capabilities. They are not camp tools or politically correct in a regular peaceful world. Just like an M-4 rifle, maybe it can be used for hunting deer or rabbits but that is not what it was designed for. I am not saying there is anything wrong with other axe designs, just that these were developed with the help of and for those that use them and are very good at their job.
 
DWinkler said:
I understand Rafael is planning a new DVD now for use with these Hawks.
Click to expand...
Woo hoo!!! :thumbup::D:thumbup: It's about time! Man, with Dwight's video and a new Sayoc one "in the works", we hawk lovers are getting spoiled!
 
Wow those are incredible. You can really see how the design would work well held near the head. They look like something the Predator would have.

I am looking forward for the DVD.

I would also love to see a lower cost user version if there is enough interest. Even at the 225$ TO 275$ range.
 
Every time I read "Designed By Special Forces" I suddenly feel the urge to regurgitate. While there may be some validity to this most often their is none and 99% of the time that offered up as "Special Forces" is pure gimmick. Unfortunately Sayoc is well know for gimmickry no matter how much validity they had in their beginning. I would not have any comment on this matter but its obvious that these weapons or being made to market to military people for combat purposes, including typical "Operator" type vocabulary so its worthy of comment based on that.


DWinklwer, Your craftsmanship looks great, I look forward to checking out some of your other stuff, maybe I will even get a chance to test one of your Hawks some day, that would be great.

Design, Well that's another matter completely. When it comes to edged weapons design, tried and true beats the heck out of experimental and when it comes to hawks there is nothing new under the sun even if Rapheal "Sun Helmet" tell you that there is. The critical flaw in the first weapon is having the edge forward beneath the cutting edge which is just the opposite of a Japanese Carving Hatchet. This design removes power from the cut and adds potential deflection which is a serious error. The second is also a classic design flaw as the edge being inverted as it is is very limiting in is use, sure you could cut the heck out of string and vine with it or make some kind of argument that its designed to kill but if that were the only factor you would simply put all the emphasis on the spike making it longer for more pentration as is done on many classic weapons.

Don't take my word for it though, test, test, and test again till you have your own conclusions based on testing. Then I can skip the sick feelings in my guts when "Experts" like Raphael cant back up designs with classic arguments and resort to "Special Forces" and "Top Secret" sales pitches.
 
Great craftsmanship. With all the tomahawks supposedly being carried by the military, can anyone post an actual 1st person account of use in the field? Some of the companies have hero shot pictures on their web sites of military holding them, but surely someone can find someone to describe how and when they actually used one of these things in the field.
 
Bubbanumber1,

I understand that there are a lot of knives and axes out there that are promoted as "Special Forces", "Special Operations" etc. and the majority may very well be hype and bull****. However I personally don't speculate on who is actually legitimate and who is not. The “Operators” that use the stuff know who they deal with and what works for them. The public has the opportunity to gather information and make decisions based on lies or truth about how designs were developed and how products are manufactured. Based on my years in the knife business I have found that most makers and factories are pretty honest, not all but most. They do all have to use some form of marketing to sell their products. Those that don’t you will probably never hear about. Having Military connections is helpful with both design development and marketing because these guy’s really sometimes use their cutlery in a combat situation. It’s true that just about all the time a gun or explosive devise will take care of the job but there is that rare occasion that an axe or a knife will be what is needed. For this reason there will always be a need for tactical cutlery.

I have no reason to doubt Rafael and Sayoc. I have met them, talked with them and seen some of the training they teach. “Operators” that I have personally worked with introduced me to Sayoc and Rafael. They use the training services offered by Sayoc and I have no reason to question their actions.

Bubbanumber1, you may be an expert on this subject. You may be a member of a “Special Operations” Team. You may be a 12-year-old kid. I don’t know. All I know is that you have posted an opinion that is different than mine. Your post is contradictory to my experience with Special Operations Teams I have personally worked with. But those are your opinions and you have the right to express them.

I have little knowledge of Japanese style Carving Hatchets or the techniques that would be used with them. I would like to know more so please direct me to where I can get further information. I do know that there are many styles of fighting weapons and unlimited techniques for fighting effectively. I believe that none are all right and none are all wrong. I guess the best weapon is the one you have in your hand when you need it.

Thank you for having an interest in this subject and I truly hope you or anyone else never really needs one of these weapons. However I will continue making them just in case you do.

Daniel
 
Bubbanumber1 said:
Design, Well that's another matter completely. When it comes to edged weapons design, tried and true beats the heck out of experimental and when it comes to hawks there is nothing new under the sun even if Rapheal "Sun Helmet" tell you that there is.
Click to expand...

Hello Sir,

There is nothing experimental with these hawks. Using classic axe and hawk design and other weapon designs were used as our foundation.

We have had prototypes of these hawks "field tested" for years now, and what is being made public is the most up to date version of that hawk.

Bubbanumber1 said:
The critical flaw in the first weapon is having the edge forward beneath the cutting edge which is just the opposite of a Japanese Carving Hatchet. This design removes power from the cut and adds potential deflection which is a serious error.
Click to expand...

Yes, the design is not based on a Japanese cutting hatchet, but more in line with the sweep of the Viking axe and the front spike attributes of a Kalinga headhunter's axe. Different purposes.

We're not cutting in the manner you described, there is no deflection, there is no dueling. The methods are to prevent this range in modern combat, if the weapon is being deflected then the user is in the incorrect scenario, incorrect positioning and range. The enemy has guns, if you are using a hawk that means you're no longer trying to shoot them. If they can deflect your weapon then they can also shoot you.

"Research" and "Development" are hard earned.
That is the miracle of meaningful work.

Bubbanumber1 said:
make some kind of argument that its designed to kill but if that were the only factor you would simply put all the emphasis on the spike making it longer for more pentration as is done on many classic weapons.
Click to expand...

Extending the front spike further would not increase it's penetrating trauma to flesh and bone. Flesh and bone have a limited capacity that can be surpassed by the length of the front spike as it is now. Again, the methods used differs from your premise. Classic weapons fought against other classic weapons. Different scenarios and thus the evolution of the fighting style.

As Mr. Winkler stated, there's many ways to fight effectively. The very notion that the design contradicts your own pre-conceived views of hawk work only supports STG's combative methodology.

Bubbanumber1 said:
Don't take my word for it though, test, test, and test again till you have your own conclusions based on testing. Then I can skip the sick feelings in my guts when "Experts" like Raphael cant back up designs with classic arguments and resort to "Special Forces" and "Top Secret" sales pitches.
Click to expand...

Mr. Winkler and I contemplated about offering these hawks to the public. Partly due to comments such as the above. It only cheapens the intent and attempts to diminish our intentions. These hawks were already being made for the end users, offering them to the public only assist us in staying in the fight.

No malice directed towards you, but I felt that before more words are typed online, I'd share a bit of my perspective. Pardon me if I remove myself from further online debates of what the best killing methods are and what not.

Too busy.

Respectfully,
--Rafael--
Tomahawk Instructor
Sayoc Tactical Group
 
Bubbanumber1 states:

Every time I read "Designed By Special Forces" I suddenly feel the urge to regurgitate. While there may be some validity to this most often their is none and 99% of the time that offered up as "Special Forces" is pure gimmick.
Click to expand...

I am sorry that you are sick to your stomach. Anything stated on the Internet has to be evaluated for truthfulness. I have no idea if you have any expertise in this subject. I also have no personal knowledge about Sayoc and their validity.

I do however have absolutely no doubt that Dan Winkler's statements can be backed up by the facts. He is an ABS Mastersmith who makes great, mostly traditional style knives and hawks. His workmanship is first rate. His knives and hawks are in great demand. You can check out his work on his website.

I also have first hand knowledge that he has been involved with a program that developes Hawks/Axes for use by active duty Special Operations members of Our Armed Forces. He delivers these tools to people who use them.

Plenty of people give lip service to supporting Our Troops. Daniel is doing it for real.

Jim Treacy
 
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