New Hybrid Viper EO Teardrop

There was a thread titled Modern Traditionals....;) that went silent December 29th of last year. Frank had posted a comment when the thread was started on January 6th of 2013. It seems that new years bring new ideas to this forum, as well as to our society in general.
Here's the first post in the thread;
avoidspam said:
I've been thinking about starting a thread like this for a while but appreciate the fact that it's walking a fine line....

I guess what I'm trying to do is get people's thoughts on makers and patterns that take the best elements of traditional knives and marry those to modern ideas, materials etc. In this 'Tactical' dominated knife period I enjoy finding knives that combine the old and new to great effect.

I'll kick things off with a couple that I'm taken with at the moment:)

(removed photoshop ransom note)

Shing Knives are essentially traditional, particularly this Puffin and his Raven design. Slipjoints but with subtly modified blade shapes. The spear point on the Puffin is asymetrical, offering more point as a nice compromise. The knife can be completely dismantled to clean, adjust and replace parts. I got the knife second hand and took it apart to smooth the backspring, improving the walk. Scales come in a variety of materials, traditional and modern. Mine came with the G10 you see and some nice stag scales. Could make some more if I felt like it....

The Enzo came as a really nice kit from Brisa who manufacture Enzo knives. The Elver follows a very traditional Scandinavian knife design only in full tang and with a variety of scale options. I went for FFG, D2 (really like D2!) coupled with linen micarta scales. I've made a few knife kits, this one was nice and easy and it's proving to be a very versatile knife.

So, please, I'm keen to see some other people's examples with pic's.... (no flippers or we'll be moved for sure!)

Sam
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Here was Frank's response;

knarfeng said:
Guidelines for defining the "fine line":
Modern materials - OK - we do those anyhow.
Modern shapes - maybe.
Pocket clips - nope
thumb studs or other non-traditional opening devices - nope

avoidspam said:
(no flippers or we'll be moved for sure!)
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You bet your bippy. (and points if you can ID the source of that one.)
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I guess my point is I have no point (knife humor). Maybe the question was already asked and answered some years ago. Maybe this particular wrinkle in the knife cosmos belongs in that older thread. Maybe it belongs somewhere else. Since Frank appears to have answered or at least tackled a similar question back in the mists of time he and I will make a determination and post it for all to view, and agree or disagree on.:)
 
Gary, even in Frank's guidelines, he says shapes are a "maybe" and opening devices a "no." Open frame construction could certainly fall under "shapes" and detents for holding the blade open are pretty close to "opening devices." And not having one to test, but couldn't the detents be defeated by a hard wrist flick, making these a "flipper?" Big no-no. Definitely NOT traditional. I'm OUT.
 
black mamba said:
Gary, even in Frank's guidelines, he says shapes are a "maybe" and opening devices a "no." Open frame construction could certainly fall under "shapes" and detents for holding the blade open are pretty close to "opening devices." And not having one to test, but couldn't the detents be defeated by a hard wrist flick, making these a "flipper?" Big no-no. Definitely NOT traditional. I'm OUT.
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That's a good point. If it's a flipper I'd vote no too. Not sure the side spring/back spring is an opening device though. I'm going to go have some coffee and breakfast and wait for Frank to rise and shine.
Happy New Year!
 
Peregrin said:
Since Frank appears to have answered or at least tackled a similar question back in the mists of time he and I will make a determination and post it for all to view, and agree or disagree on.:)
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I would certainly welcome that Gary :thumbsup:

This issue has come up again and again here, and personally, I'm not going to spend New Year's Day having the same repetitive arguments. If Traditional knives supposedly "evolve", there has to come a point when they move to General, but I think part of the problem is that some people come here from General, and find this is a much nicer environment. Like many of us, they like modern knives as well as traditional patterns, and they want to talk about them, but they don't want to go back to General. There may be some posters who don't know what a Traditional knife looks like, but I think most folk here, whether they'll admit it or not, know full well that certain features mean that knife has broken from tradition. The last time this issue came up, I went so far as to set up a 'group' to allow posters to talk about these 'problem' knives somewhere else, but unfortunately that got killed off with the forum software changes.
 
I believe I have stayed in line with regards to having a discussion, and as said previously, I don't mean to offend anyone, just wanted to examine the other side of the coin...which wasn't happening up to that point.

I have been away for a while, and maybe should just sit back and get familiar with the waters again.
 
Jack Black said:
I would certainly welcome that Gary :thumbsup:

This issue has come up again and again here, and personally, I'm not going to spend New Year's Day having the same repetitive arguments. If Traditional knives supposedly "evolve", there has to come a point when they move to General, but I think part of the problem is that some people come here from General, and find this is a much nicer environment. Like many of us, they like modern knives as well as traditional patterns, and they want to talk about them, but they don't want to go back to General. There may be some posters who don't know what a Traditional knife looks like, but I think most folk here, whether they'll admit it or not, know full well that certain features mean that knife has broken from tradition. The last time this issue came up, I went so far as to set up a 'group' to allow posters to talk about these 'problem' knives somewhere else, but unfortunately that got killed off with the forum software changes.
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As a newbie, I have enjoyed the Porch without having spent any significant time in the General forum, even though I appreciate non-traditional knives. I respect the attitude of wanting to protect a tradition, but I think there is a difference between "Evolving" and adapting or innovating. Adaptation within the tradition doesn't have to involve a break from tradition. Makers are going to make new knives, and some of them will want to draw from the style and construction of traditional knives in ways that aren't traditional. But unless those who respect the tradition talk about it, those who are new won't learn what fits the tradition.

Does the Viper EO fit, or not? Does a traditional knife need to have a back spring, or does the knife just need to have the same type of opening action that a traditional knife has? I think black mamba black mamba 's point about the detent ball not fitting within the guidelines of a traditional opening is a great comment and helps folks new to the tradition to gain some sense of what fits. The Lionsteel Euro-Barlow looks like a traditional knife and has a lot of the same elements, but it also doesn't feel like a traditional knife in other ways. Is it on the fringe of tradition, or does it break from it?

I have a French slip joint knife that is made from a modern stainless steel, carbon fiber and paper/resin handle material, a screw pivot, and a backspring that is g-10 sandwiched with stainless steel. Yet it is also pinned and has classic lines that show off the elegance of French knife tradition (in my opinion). I don't consider it a traditional knife, but I think having a discussion about it help to keep the boundaries of the Tradition clear, and helps to pass it on to future generations who want to keep the tradition alive.
 
I'm not a resident of the porch and I have a lot of respect for y'all and the rules for posting, but I will say I'm always happy to see offerings like this. No matter where they fit in or are discussed I think modern folders gaining the aesthetic beauty and functional geometry of traditional offerings is a great thing.
 
I guess I should give my opinion - since it is my production. Personally I am neutral on whether a group of folks considers it "traditional" or not - for any purpose other than to be able to gather opinions and feedback from the one sub-forum I actually participate. That is not a slight on our fine group here, just a commentary on the way my mind works at this age. I broached the subject some time back and felt like it had been well discussed at that time. But I do think our society has gotten somewhat bad about creating a set of rules that are to be used - only to allow some of the outspoken to change those rules when an example they have a personal feeling about shows up. Written rules are in place for a reason. If a single rule can't regulate everyone - then it shouldn't regulate anyone. So, if we want to request the mods put a backspring in the rules, I have no problem with that. But that will probably exclude many other knives we have always considered traditional. Is a locking bar with secondary tension mechanism a backspring? Does a backspring have to be fixed at two points, thus a "spring"? Does it have to be externally visible? Does it have to apply the pressure to a specific point on the blade?

Again; I love the conversations and camaraderie here. And just want to be clear that my only objection is to making up rules inside a single discussion that will only pertain in that respect.

As to the knife. I came from traditionals. When I started CollectorKnives.net - that is all we had - period. But there seems to be two problems that I would like to see overcome. A) The makers are sliding into history at an alarming rate. Those craftsmen that we recognize from our childhood, cannot succeed in today's market. Either they are financially collapsing, or they can't maintain the quality required to stay viable - which will eventually do the same. B) There are many new, and arguably superior, components out there for traditional knife components. The vast majority of customers to the companies that use modern components, could not care less if the traditional knife survives or not. I do care. And if it takes a little melding in current offerings to freshen or revive interests, I don't see the downside. Others may, but one opinion counts for one opinion - not more - not less. If we want to narrow the definition tight enough to guarantee there can be an ever-decreasing supply for old times sake - I can see the nostalgia in that.

But, at the end of the day, I want to make available knives that are pleasing functionally at a respective value. Whether they can be discussed in this sub-forum is important to me, but secondary. Many times I use this group as a "Traditional Advisory", and I value that tremendously. But I am learning that in modern times, the market is the voice that demands the attention.
 
knifeswapper said:
As to the knife. I came from traditionals. When I started CollectorKnives.net - that is all we had - period. But there seems to be two problems that I would like to see overcome. A) The makers are sliding into history at an alarming rate. Those craftsmen that we recognize from our childhood, cannot succeed in today's market. Either they are financially collapsing, or they can't maintain the quality required to stay viable - which will eventually do the same. B) There are many new, and arguably superior, components out there for traditional knife components. The vast majority of customers to the companies that use modern components, could not care less if the traditional knife survives or not. I do care. And if it takes a little melding in current offerings to freshen or revive interests, I don't see the downside. Others may, but one opinion counts for one opinion - not more - not less. If we want to narrow the definition tight enough to guarantee there can be an ever-decreasing supply for old times sake - I can see the nostalgia in that.

But, at the end of the day, I want to make available knives that are pleasing functionally at a respective value. Whether they can be discussed in this sub-forum is important to me, but secondary. Many times I use this group as a "Traditional Advisory", and I value that tremendously. But I am learning that in modern times, the market is the voice that demands the attention.
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I appreciate that you are keeping the spirit of traditional knives going in the modern market. It exemplifies the point I was trying to make about keeping old things alive where otherwise they wouldn't.
 
sitflyer said:
I believe I have stayed in line with regards to having a discussion, and as said previously, I don't mean to offend anyone, just wanted to examine the other side of the coin...which wasn't happening up to that point.
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I completly age and I didn't feel like I was being abrasive or confrontational either. We were simply discussing our individual viewpoints on this knife, one may extrapolate that further out, if one wishes.
That was not my intent, and I cannot speak for sitflyer sitflyer .

Since I feel that I have made my stance fairly clear, I will not reiterate my previous posts. That being said, I am not against clarifying any points that I have previously made, if asked. Nor am I against furthering the discussion.

black mamba black mamba
Having a knife that can be flicked out by wrist movement and causing centrifugal force to open the blade is called a gravity knife. This is fundamentally different than an actual flipper knife, which requires a force to be exerted on an extention of the blade that extends from the handle in angle opposing the blade.

Gravity knives date back to (at least) WW2 with the German paramilitary knife. Which by my calendar, would make a gravity knife a traditional action.
 
This knife won't be for me unfortunately, my crippled fingers can't do the pinch, but personally I applaud Mike spearheading this effort of taking everything that makes a traditional knife superior and simply removing the factors which make it traditional for traditions sake alone. I honestly believe that the cutlers of the heyday of traditional knives being the ubiquitous tool in every pocket would have applauded and been proud.
 
NJBillK said:
Lacking a backspring to make it a slip joint, it utilizes a three position detent system to offer a fully seated open, half-stop, and closed positions. That being said, the detent rides in a "side spring" of sorts, so I am not sure of the technical term to denote such a mechanism (The "side spring" term was taken from Mike, below.)

What do you folks think of the new guy?
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I don't think the knife itself qualifies as suitable fare for the Traditional Forum, much the way that knives with Walker Liner Locks don't qualify as traditional liner locks. The mechanism does count in such matters. But I think this is an excellent discussion and feel that the thread should remain open for further comment. Gary and I have been talking. This thread will eventually be merged with the "modern traditionals thread".
 
NJBillK said:
I completly age and I didn't feel like I was being abrasive or confrontational either. We were simply discussing our individual viewpoints on this knife, one may extrapolate that further out, if one wishes.
That was not my intent, and I cannot speak for sitflyer sitflyer .

Since I feel that I have made my stance fairly clear, I will not reiterate my previous posts. That being said, I am not against clarifying any points that I have previously made, if asked. Nor am I against furthering the discussion.

black mamba black mamba
Having a knife that can be flicked out by wrist movement and causing centrifugal force to open the blade is called a gravity knife. This is fundamentally different than an actual flipper knife, which requires a force to be exerted on an extention of the blade that extends from the handle in angle opposing the blade.

Gravity knives date back to (at least) WW2 with the German paramilitary knife. Which by my calendar, would make a gravity knife a traditional action.
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I enjoyed the discussion, and that's all it was, a discussion , and me voicing of my interpretation of this particular knife. BTW, I find this offering a rather brilliant design and credit is due to knifeswapper knifeswapper for bringing it to the table. It hopefully will be a very popular offering, as it should be.

Various viewpoints came to the table, and I think both sides of the coin have some merit. As for the discussion regarding "rules", I believe the rules in place here are more than adequate as they are.
 
I see advantages and disadvantages to the construction of this knife.

Potential advantage: with a stop pin and no backspring, there would be no flexing of the backspring in heavy cuts.

Potential disadvantage: detent balls can flatten over time (especially if there is a significant delta between the hardness of the blade and detent ball), and the edge (or lip) of the detent hole can have a track worn in it over time, thus slightly lessening the detent.

Neither of this issues are that big of a deal, just something interesting to discuss.
 
I have to agree with the old guys on this one. Screwing a teardrop or candlestick pattern together and giving it a ball detent and some carbon fiber handles and a fancy super steel may get some in-betweeners interested. But its not traditional by any aspect. It is a modern design with modern materials. That in itself would be my take but the newer guys may disagree but i dont see a grounds for an actual argument. It is what is and it isn't a duck. :)
 
Goose 7279 said:
But its not traditional by any aspect. It is a modern design with modern materials. That in itself would be my take but the newer guys may disagree but i dont see a grounds for an actual argument. It is what is and it isn't a duck. :)
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There ya go, the obvious answer we were all looking for. EZ Open Teardrop in wood - too modern for a traditional ;)
 
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