New Japanese Knife or Electric Sharpener?

V

vaaccess

Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
28
Hey everyone.

I have a set of Twin Henckel Cuisine knives that I've had for about 7 or so years. I've never had them professionally sharpened, but have a yellow double-sided wedge sharpener that I use relatively regularly to try and keep them sharp.

I've found that it's hard to keep a good edge on them, most likely because I'm not sharpening them well I realize.

I had been considering getting an electric sharpener and went into Sur La Table to check them out. While there, I spent about thirty minutes trying knives and found that the Global Ni Chef's knife was pretty amazing.

So that got me to thinking...Should I just get a sharpener or should I consider getting a new (just one) knife? They'll basically set me back the same amount of money...

About my knife usage....

I cut fruit and vegetables almost exclusively.

In the set I have, I have an 8" Chef's Knife and a 7" Santoku. While I only tried the 8" the one time I tested the knives at the store, I'm thinking that if I did get a new knife I'd go with a 10".

If I do end up going with a new knife...

The other reality is that the Global Ni knife was great, no doubt, but pretty expensive. To save some money, I'm not afraid of ordering a knife site un-seen if the reputation warrants the risk and hopefully returns are accepted...

I haven't done a ton of research on this topic yet (just getting started), but if you want to throw out any thoughts, I'd appreciate it!

Thanks,
Mike
 
Learn to sharpen free hand and you will never have to ask this question again.
Rich
 
I agree with Rich. I would never let my knives touch an electric sharpener either.

OP, you could probably save money by buying a water stone, a $5 kitchen knife from walmart, and practice on the cheap knife.

What's the point of having a global (something I'm not fond of) if that'll get dull eventually anyways?
 
Great feedback guys. I hadn't even considered doing that honestly because I figured the technique would be too hard to learn and results would be mixed or bad.

Is there a good resource somewhere here that would lead me down the best path?

Somewhat related I suppose...about a year ago I stopped using cartridge razors after reading about how the old school DE safety razors were really quite effective AND significantly cheaper. I suppose this is another example....

Would still be curious to get thoughts on the new knife, but will shift the sharpening direction to a wet stone. Time to watch some YouTube videos!

Thanks,
Mike
 
Stop using the "V" sharpener you have, forget about the electric sharpener and get the knife you want.
Do some research to find a proffesianal sharpenng service in your area or a good mail in service. Ask them what equipment they use and thier proccess for Japanese knives.
Most home owners knives only need sharpening twice a year with proper honing.
I sharpen knives for about 100 restaurants and also for many home owners. I can always tell if a drag tool or electric sharpener was used on a knife.
 
The nicer the knife you get, the more reason you'd have to sharpen and maintain it yourself using quality sharpening methods. So it seems backwards to me to get a nice knife instead of sharpening equipment, and the last thing you want is to get a nice knife, then sharpen it on an electrical sharpener!

Electrical sharpeners are not going to put a better edge on your knives, they'll just make it more convenient to sharpen more frequently. However, they'll eat the steel up more quickly and the closer you get to the spine, the thicker the edge will be and the worse the knife will cut.

A couple nice waterstones or DMT plates and a cermaic honing rod is what I'd get were I in your shoes. The knives you currently have will be great to practice with and once your skills are adequate and wallet replenished you'll be ready for a finer knife. Once you're good at it you'll be able to put a very keen edge on those Henkels and the ceramic rod will keep them cutting for a long time between sharpenings.

The main reason for you to get a new knife - in my opinion - would be based on your usage. The Henkels and the Global are both Western style knives meaning they have thicker blades and softer steel; they are great all-around knives for long-hours in working kitchens. Japanese knives tend to be designed for very specific tasks: De-boning chicken, butchering red meat and pork, slicing fish, slicing fruit, chopping vegetables, etc. all have unique profiles associated with them in the Japanese knife world. Ones designed for slicing and chopping veggies and meat are usually very thin and hard so that they slice better and stay sharp longer, the caveat being that they might chip if you ever try to cut something with bones in it.

Since you state fruit and veggie processing as your almost exclusive task for the knife, I urge you to look into the Nakiri and Gyuto profiles. I can personally vouch for the quality and amazing slicing-ability of Takeda Forge and Murray Carter's knives. Richmond Knives is the other brand I strongly recommend and can personally vouch for, especially if you want stainless. Their AEB-L knives are very easy to sharpen and maintain, they use thin steel and Japanese profiles but you can choose between Western or Japanese handle. The AEB-L does not hold it's edge nearly as long as the Aogami steels used by Takeda and Carter but is easier to keep sharp and the Richmond knives are much, much less expensive.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby!
 
I agree. Since Mike probably has a Chef and a Santoku, a Nakiri or Gyuto would be a nice addition. My preference would be a Nakiri from Osaka as opposed to one from Tokyo. Generally a Nakiri from Tokyo will have a much more flat edge compaired to one from Osaka that will be more rounded on either end making it play a little nicer and more forgiving on the cutting board.
However, Globals are actually a Japanese knife. They are also thinner and made of much harder steel than western knives. it is VERY uncommon to see a kitchen using a Global to de-bone a chicken or a butcher using a Shun to break down a cow or hog, or even more delicate meat cuts for that matter.
I say spend your time finding the knife you like. Then focus more on the maintenance!
justsomedude said:
The nicer the knife you get, the more reason you'd have to sharpen and maintain it yourself using quality sharpening methods. So it seems backwards to me to get a nice knife instead of sharpening equipment, and the last thing you want is to get a nice knife, then sharpen it on an electrical sharpener!

Electrical sharpeners are not going to put a better edge on your knives, they'll just make it more convenient to sharpen more frequently. However, they'll eat the steel up more quickly and the closer you get to the spine, the thicker the edge will be and the worse the knife will cut.

A couple nice waterstones or DMT plates and a cermaic honing rod is what I'd get were I in your shoes. The knives you currently have will be great to practice with and once your skills are adequate and wallet replenished you'll be ready for a finer knife. Once you're good at it you'll be able to put a very keen edge on those Henkels and the ceramic rod will keep them cutting for a long time between sharpenings.

The main reason for you to get a new knife - in my opinion - would be based on your usage. The Henkels and the Global are both Western style knives meaning they have thicker blades and softer steel; they are great all-around knives for long-hours in working kitchens. Japanese knives tend to be designed for very specific tasks: De-boning chicken, butchering red meat and pork, slicing fish, slicing fruit, chopping vegetables, etc. all have unique profiles associated with them in the Japanese knife world. Ones designed for slicing and chopping veggies and meat are usually very thin and hard so that they slice better and stay sharp longer, the caveat being that they might chip if you ever try to cut something with bones in it.

Since you state fruit and veggie processing as your almost exclusive task for the knife, I urge you to look into the Nakiri and Gyuto profiles. I can personally vouch for the quality and amazing slicing-ability of Takeda Forge and Murray Carter's knives. Richmond Knives is the other brand I strongly recommend and can personally vouch for, especially if you want stainless. Their AEB-L knives are very easy to sharpen and maintain, they use thin steel and Japanese profiles but you can choose between Western or Japanese handle. The AEB-L does not hold it's edge nearly as long as the Aogami steels used by Takeda and Carter but is easier to keep sharp and the Richmond knives are much, much less expensive.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby!
Click to expand...
 
Great stuff, guys.

I honestly like and appreciate the idea to get the stuff to sharpen on my own, knowing that I'll use it on my current set and future knives. Great suggestion, and indeed seems a little backwards but yet makes sense!

I was just surfing around and found this: http://lansky.com/index.php/products/4-stone-deluxe-diamond-system/
In theory, it seems like a reasonable system to ensure a proper edge, but curious to know if you guys have an opinion on it. Didn't really see the kits references by the searching I did on here, but maybe I used the wrong keywords...
I'll continue to search the site for sharpening insights, but if you want to share a specific sharpening suggestion (not sure where to find DMT plates or waterstones or which to get, etc...

Regarding the knives I have, the set includes 7 Henckel Cuisines and indeed I do have an 8" chef and 7" Santoku. I'll check out the Nakiri or Gyuto when I'm ready to consider doing it, but thinking the sharpening will need to suffice for a bit...

Thanks!!!
Mike
 
I think your on the right track! Unless you have someone in your area to show you how to use stones freehand I think you will spend a lot of useless time trying to learn otherwise. Another time perhaps.
The Lansky isn't bad but it isn't going to get to the fine angle, (or grit) a Japanese knife should be. Check out a Wicked Edge or Edge a Pro. They are machined much better, (cost a bit more), but you will have it for ever!
I have the WE Gen 3 Pro so I'm a little biast. Ask others in maintenance and tinkering.
vaaccess said:
Great stuff, guys.

I honestly like and appreciate the idea to get the stuff to sharpen on my own, knowing that I'll use it on my current set and future knives. Great suggestion, and indeed seems a little backwards but yet makes sense!

I was just surfing around and found this: http://lansky.com/index.php/products/4-stone-deluxe-diamond-system/
In theory, it seems like a reasonable system to ensure a proper edge, but curious to know if you guys have an opinion on it. Didn't really see the kits references by the searching I did on here, but maybe I used the wrong keywords...
I'll continue to search the site for sharpening insights, but if you want to share a specific sharpening suggestion (not sure where to find DMT plates or waterstones or which to get, etc...

Regarding the knives I have, the set includes 7 Henckel Cuisines and indeed I do have an 8" chef and 7" Santoku. I'll check out the Nakiri or Gyuto when I'm ready to consider doing it, but thinking the sharpening will need to suffice for a bit...

Thanks!!!
Mike
Click to expand...
 
Bazzle said:
I think your on the right track! Unless you have someone in your area to show you how to use stones freehand I think you will spend a lot of useless time trying to learn otherwise. Another time perhaps.
The Lansky isn't bad but it isn't going to get to the fine angle, (or grit) a Japanese knife should be. Check out a Wicked Edge or Edge a Pro. They are machined much better, (cost a bit more), but you will have it for ever!
I have the WE Gen 3 Pro so I'm a little biast. Ask others in maintenance and tinkering.
Click to expand...

"A bit more"
*looks it up*
Yikes!!!
 
There is no better way to improve your life than to improve yourself. Sharpening by hand is a skill that one can learn and hone (pun intended) to improve oneself. Eventually your hand-sharpening skills will be good enough that you can sharpen almost anything using almost any abrasive surface from the bottom of a coffee mug to a scrap of denim or newsprint.

The Wicked Edge (and EdgePro and Lansky) is a good tool for restoring badly damaged edges and for re-profiling blades, especially to make edges more acute. It can be used for regular maintenance as well but I don't recommend that. I have a Wicked Edge and have only really used it on flea market finds and badly abused knives of friends and family.

A couple of my kitchen knives have never needed to see more than a strop to keep them sharp, including a Takeda Nakiri that I've had for three years and use 4-7 times a week. And by sharp I mean, the weight of the knife alone will allow it to fall through a tomato. It helps to use only medium-soft wood cutting boards such as Hinoki.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/knife-accessories.html is a great merchant whom I can vouch for, that has all the sharpening supplies you could need and a nice selection of Japanese knives. The Richmond strop set is nice and I can also recommend the Idahone ceramic honing rods. I've heard good things about the King 800/6000 combo stone but if you think you're going to get serious with hand sharpening you might want to get a pair of Shaptons or Naniwa instead.

You'll see that a lot of stones are quite expensive but you really don't need all of them. At minimum you'll want a coarse stone for fixing chips and rolls, a medium stone for refining the coarse edge and a strop for finishing and maintaining. You can then fill in the gap between medium and strop with high-grit stones to save time stropping and to progress towards true mirror-polished edges.

Figuring out exactly which grits you want, or if you want DMT for the course stages is something you'll need to learn by research. Something like the Lansky could make a nice alternative to the coarse stone for setting and repairing edges. Then a medium-grit stone and strop for maintenance.
 
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I should add, for clarification, that the Lansky is a good tool. Unlike the pull-through or electrical sharpeners, you will get plenty of endorsements for the Lansky here. Nobody here would condone the use of an electrical or pull-through sharpener.

An exception that I have heard some good things about is the Ken Onion Work Sharp, but I don't have personal experience with it: http://www.worksharptools.com/ken-onion-edition-knife-and-tool-sharpener.html
 
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Bazzle said:
I agree. Since Mike probably has a Chef and a Santoku, a Nakiri or Gyuto would be a nice addition. My preference would be a Nakiri from Osaka as opposed to one from Tokyo. Generally a Nakiri from Tokyo will have a much more flat edge compaired to one from Osaka that will be more rounded on either end making it play a little nicer and more forgiving on the cutting board.
However, Globals are actually a Japanese knife. They are also thinner and made of much harder steel than western knives. it is VERY uncommon to see a kitchen using a Global to de-bone a chicken or a butcher using a Shun to break down a cow or hog, or even more delicate meat cuts for that matter.
I say spend your time finding the knife you like. Then focus more on the maintenance!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info! I didn't know about the difference between Nakiri styles but as soon as I read that it clicked that I've seen two distinct varieties. Carter's definitely have a more rounded look to them...

For what it's worth, I think the effect on your cutting board will have to do a lot with technique. If you use Western technique, anchoring the tip on the board, then you'd destroy your board. But if you chop using the more traditional Nakiri chopping technique, it's not so bad. I use mine on a Hinoki board regularly and the board is in excellent condition.

Thanks for correcting me about Global, I don't know much about them and was just assuming, my bad.
 
justsomedude said:
There is no better way to improve your life than to improve yourself.
Click to expand...
This pretty much hits it on the head, as to why I inquire about this stuff versus just being a drone and going into a store and buying something. I try to learn as much as I can, to your point this is just the current step. :)

justsomedude said:
The Wicked Edge (and EdgePro and Lansky) is a good tool for restoring badly damaged edges and for re-profiling blades, especially to make edges more acute. It can be used for regular maintenance as well but I don't recommend that. I have a Wicked Edge and have only really used it on flea market finds and badly abused knives of friends and family.

A couple of my kitchen knives have never needed to see more than a strop to keep them sharp, including a Takeda Nakiri that I've had for three years and use 4-7 times a week. And by sharp I mean, the weight of the knife alone will allow it to fall through a tomato. It helps to use only medium-soft wood cutting boards such as Hinoki.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/knife-accessories.html is a great merchant whom I can vouch for, that has all the sharpening supplies you could need and a nice selection of Japanese knives. The Richmond strop set is nice and I can also recommend the Idahone ceramic honing rods. I've heard good things about the King 800/6000 combo stone but if you think you're going to get serious with hand sharpening you might want to get a pair of Shaptons or Naniwa instead.

You'll see that a lot of stones are quite expensive but you really don't need all of them. At minimum you'll want a coarse stone for fixing chips and rolls, a medium stone for refining the coarse edge and a strop for finishing and maintaining. You can then fill in the gap between medium and strop with high-grit stones to save time stropping and to progress towards true mirror-polished edges.

Figuring out exactly which grits you want, or if you want DMT for the course stages is something you'll need to learn by research. Something like the Lansky could make a nice alternative to the coarse stone for setting and repairing edges. Then a medium-grit stone and strop for maintenance.
Click to expand...

Researching is certainly happening and I'm pretty much beyond the idea that I can buy some quick/easy tool to get the job done right.

One thing I haven't figured out yet, but will when I read more/watch more videos...is that when you do this stuff by hand, how can you possibly get the angle right? Maybe you just scratch/grind and ensure you're hitting the whole bevel, to keep the angle consistent? Dunno...I'm sure that mystery will solve itself soon. Thanks for the merchant recommendation. Will check them out when I can!
 
I will say that learning to sharpen free hand is an invaluable skill to have, I for one never spent the time to learn it properly. I purchased several diamond stones, water stones, oil stones, basically about a couple hundred bucks worth of stuff and tried and tried to get it down pat, but I just couldn't. I also wanted a way to have very consistent results everytime, so I forked out the money for the Apex edge pro and I have never regretted it.

-Adam
 
The need to hold a highly consistent angle is greatly exaggerated. I've seen people sharpen with stone in one hand and blade in the other. There is no way the angle is that consistent, but the edges are hair whittling sharp. Don't make it more complicated than it is.
 
vaaccess said:
Somewhat related I suppose...about a year ago I stopped using cartridge razors after reading about how the old school DE safety razors were really quite effective AND significantly cheaper. I suppose this is another example....

Would still be curious to get thoughts on the new knife, but will shift the sharpening direction to a wet stone. Time to watch some YouTube videos!

Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...

Ah another convert, great! I love shaving with DE safety razors.

I have tried to learn to sharpen myself mainly because I do some whittling and need my pocket knives really sharp for that. But if is mainly kitchen knives you are concerned about, nothing wrong with using a professional sharpening service.

I purchased two knives from a local custom knife maker with lifetime sharpening included so I don't touch those.
 
I do believe that knife sharpener have made sharpening a very easy task for everyone. Now we can sharpen our dull and messy knives using them in no time. But I think that an electric knife sharpener is no feasible in all scenarios. You can not fully control the sharpness of knife during sharpening through electric sharpener. I personally have used some very good push through knife sharpeners which I recommend for knife sharpening.
 
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