New member, but I'm about as authentic as they come ...so check this one out

Authentic or ?

  • Authentic

  • Reproduction


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Mine could actually even be Etruscan (Pre-Roman). Both Luristan and Etruscan are very similar in style and are both approx. mid - late bronze age. I'm leaning/feeling toward Etruscan and the Pre-Roman and now Tuscany Central Italy region. The Persians/Iranians are where many of the most recent Luristan daggers/short swords have been found, and you are right about the availability vs. the much later Roman swords due to the iron/steel pretty-much decomposing into the Earth vs. the solid bronze period weapons which tend to hold up quite well anywhere being from 2000-3000+ years in age to date. It's nice to have Smithsonian and Oxford SME/PHD folks as solid resources/references.
 
ps Note the very similar leaf shape, style and unique patina spots throughout the blade on the Etruscan Villanovan Circa 9th - 7th Century BC/BCE.


939637895.jpg


so many similar bronze daggers/short swords from the bronze age - early iron age ...and not to mention the Romans/Greeks have actually found their own hoard caches of these bronze weapons during the late Etruscan wars - early Roman era. Not to mention the Etruscans had a huge influence on the Romans with respect to their weaponry-making skills/techniques. have a good weekend, guys ...rare long one for me :)

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...&ved=0ahUKEwjWhqPc96vkAhUcIDQIHZ91DoYQ4dUDCAY
 
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Outside my area, but buying bronze weaponry on eBay is a pastime fraught with opportunities to be conned. There are plenty of Chinese fakers out there making similar items at a prodigious rate.

Something to consider. If someone can fake a bronze dagger writing a phony note to go with it would be simplistic. In fact for the low, low price of 19.95 I can provide you with additional documentation of this piece. What do you want it to say?

Something else to consider... If you are purchasing putative antiquities but asking if they are genuine on Internet fora, perhaps more study time of said antiquities is indicated.
 
...and that's why I know the folks I know at The Smithsonian in DC and at Oxford University are pretty good folks to have on one's side in the form of subject matter experts on ancient relics and antiquities.
 
I can't speak about this one. I bought a Luristan bronze eared dagger from a museum deacquisition sale with documents certifying it authenticity. Lots of real Luristan bronze items our there as they were used as burial goods. But also a lot of easily made fakes. Hope your's is a good piece.
Rich

Hi Rich, can we/i see your luristan? i'd love to see it. you can sressany@comcast.net it to me in private if you want. i'm also on https://www.facebook.com/stevenessani
 
Those look like fakes.

what's amazing is that counterfeits/reproductions/fakes (whatever we call them) have dated back to even the same ancient time periods with weapons/coins; something that even NGC Ancients has discussed in length on ancient coins and their grading vs. them actually being able to authenticate a piece/item. note this one which could be reproduced aka fake via some modern-day "blacksmith" in places like china, bulgaria or cyprus = notorious for NFSL origins. for example marto swords of toledo/spain makes some beautiful show/display reproductions ....but essentially they are reproductions or fake vs. authentic period blades if you think about it. what differentiates all of this is when a dealer/seller claims to be selling/auctioning a "100% authentic piece." = provenance, paperwork, known credible estate/collection/authentication ???

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ancient-Pre-Roman-Bronze-Dagger-Etruscan-Villanovan-culture-9th-7th-Century-BC/372663818944?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
 
...and that's why I know the folks I know at The Smithsonian in DC and at Oxford University are pretty good folks to have on one's side in the form of subject matter experts on ancient relics and antiquities.

If you are satisfied with their authentication then I curious as to why you would be asking here? Have you sent them the piece for authentication? Where did you purchase the item and what was the purchase price?
 
where else can one discuss or share a particular piece without having actual physical hands/eyes on it is the question. essentially, why even have a forum like this if folks aren't curious or interested in sharing their item(s) or considered item if you think about it, right? kind of how i was curious and interested to see what folks thought about this recent purchase of mine; as shared on the "coin talk" and "forum ancient coins" sites.

rjcedo-jpg.988466
 
ps. ...and if i was to lean left or right on a find, i would still lean right/positive on a find even if the sme's (say at the smithsonian or at oxford) could not either completely authenticate or rule out against a piece, because i would rather them be 50/50 for/against aka undecided vs. them completely ruling against a particular piece confirming that it is a 100% bad/poor attempt at even it being a reproduction or a fake if you think about it. so far they like it, but will see what they say once in-hand and onsite.
 
what's amazing is that counterfeits/reproductions/fakes (whatever we call them) have dated back to even the same ancient time periods with weapons/coins; something that even NGC Ancients has discussed in length on ancient coins and their grading vs. them actually being able to authenticate a piece/item. note this one which could be reproduced aka fake via some modern-day "blacksmith" in places like china, bulgaria or cyprus = notorious for NFSL origins. for example marto swords of toledo/spain makes some beautiful show/display reproductions ....but essentially they are reproductions or fake vs. authentic period blades if you think about it. what differentiates all of this is when a dealer/seller claims to be selling/auctioning a "100% authentic piece." = provenance, paperwork, known credible estate/collection/authentication ???

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ancient-Pre-Roman-Bronze-Dagger-Etruscan-Villanovan-culture-9th-7th-Century-BC/372663818944?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


True that, examples being Japanese swords with forged maker's names, and the fake Ulfbert viking swords made a thousand years ago.
 
I understand and you are right it's fun to share. We do have a different outlook in general, perhaps I am more pragmatic ( or maybe just less optimistic) about authenticity. If I do not have the expertise to make a call myself, the item had better have iron clad provenance. Did you mention where you got the piece?
 
What I would look for in a metals analysis regard IF tested, is the presence or absence of Aresnic. The next step in that regard is the analysis of the percentage of arsenic, this will Identify the source of the copper and possibly the Tin in the alloy, where it was mined.
Presence of Nickel is not necessarily a disqualifier as many objects of known provenance have small nickel and even Cobalt content in the bronze.

Silver content would, if it had any, would suggest an African source as would cobalt content and the absence of Nickel. Some ancient bronzes used for statues actually contained Gold in trace amounts and silver content significantly higher (particularly with Spanish sourced copper, because of how the Spanish refined silver).

While Greek-era copper (typically mined in Cyprus) is would not contain Manganese, the same cannot be said of Persian or Indian sourced copper.

An EXACT analysis can sometimes pinpoint the original mine source to a matter of Feet or Yards!

Not too many years ago a Wrecked Pheonecian trading vessel was found in the Agean Sea, and onboard were a cargo of copper ingots and It caused some consternation in the scientific community when a careful analysis was done, the copper could be precisely located to a specific part of one Ancient pit mine on Mackinac Island in Michigan! This was done by not only the specific percentage of Arsenic in the Copper but by the exact percentages of different Isotopes of Copper, which varies by the mine source This shipwreck solved a longstanding archeological mystery, as known copper mine sites did not Explain all the known Bronze artifacts in the world and known sources fell short by more than an order of magnitude (factor of 10) Archeology could not explain ~90% of the known artifacts and careful analysis did not match most of the copper to known European, Asian or African mines, But many of those artifacts can be PROVEN to have come from a group of mine sites along a swathe across eastern North America From Northern NJ, North Eastern PA and New York and on across Southern Ontario.

The point being that metals can be identified as to source. and alloys just give more data Identifying Tin Sources, Zinc sources, etc

Differentiating between Bronze (an alloy of Copper and Tin) and Brass (an alloy of Copper and Zinc) is relatively modern as such things go.

Especially as differentiating Zinc and Tin, or the known Ores of each were not always separated, was not always done or even clearly understood in antiquity.

Arsenic Impurities were not known/understood or dealt with in either copper or tin smelting as Arsenic could also often be found in Tin ores known by Europeans, West Asians and Africans


This metal "fingerprinting" can reveal some unpleasant facts, like some Swiss
GOLD coins were revealed to have a Mercury content, that suggested that the coins had been made from poorly refined Gold sourced from Nazi Gold, as much of that contained both Silver and Mercury as part of "DENTAL Gold"!
 
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What I would look for in a metals analysis regard IF tested, is the presence or absence of Aresnic. The next step in that regard is the analysis of the percentage of arsenic, this will Identify the source of the copper and possibly the Tin in the alloy, where it was mined.
Presence of Nickel is not necessarily a disqualifier as many objects of known provenance have small nickel and even Cobalt content in the bronze.

Silver content would, if it had any, would suggest an African source as would cobalt content and the absence of Nickel. Some ancient bronzes used for statues actually contained Gold in trace amounts and silver content significantly higher (particularly with Spanish sourced copper, because of how the Spanish refined silver).

While Greek-era copper (typically mined in Cyprus) is would not contain Manganese, the same cannot be said of Persian or Indian sourced copper.

An EXACT analysis can sometimes pinpoint the original mine source to a matter of Feet or Yards!

Not too many years ago a Wrecked Pheonecian trading vessel was found in the Agean Sea, and onboard were a cargo of copper ingots and It caused some consternation in the scientific community when a careful analysis was done, the copper could be precisely located to a specific part of one Ancient pit mine on Mackinac Island in Michigan! This was done by not only the specific percentage of Arsenic in the Copper but by the exact percentages of different Isotopes of Copper, which varies by the mine source This shipwreck solved a longstanding archeological mystery, as known copper mine sites did not Explain all the known Bronze artifacts in the world and known sources fell short by more than an order of magnitude (factor of 10) Archeology could not explain ~90% of the known artifacts and careful analysis did not match most of the copper to known European, Asian or African mines, But many of those artifacts can be PROVEN to have come from a group of mine sites along a swathe across eastern North America From Northern NJ, North Eastern PA and New York and on across Southern Ontario.

The point being that metals can be identified as to source. and alloys just give more data Identifying Tin Sources, Zinc sources, etc

Differentiating between Bronze (an alloy of Copper and Tin) and Brass (an alloy of Copper and Zinc) is relatively modern as such things go.

Especially as differentiating Zinc and Tin, or the known Ores of each were not always separated, was not always done or even clearly understood in antiquity.

Arsenic Impurities were not known/understood or dealt with in either copper or tin smelting as Arsenic could also often be found in Tin ores known by Europeans, West Asians and Africans


This metal "fingerprinting" can reveal some unpleasant facts, like some Swiss
GOLD coins were revealed to have a Mercury content, that suggested that the coins had been made from poorly refined Gold sourced from Nazi Gold, as much of that contained both Silver and Mercury as part of "DENTAL Gold"!

Can you source that to something reputable? I did a quick google search and mostly what I got were sites that also want to tell me about ancient aliens, bigfoot etc. Well that and something from Graham Hancock... who might actually be an ancient alien... :) I'm not saying it's not true but I have to think that it would have lead to something of splash in the news and I don't recall ever hearing that before... and I like to think I pay attention to new discoveries. Any insight you can provide would be appreciated
 
I would like to add that the Greeks and Romans oftentimes recycled their bronze/brass and often incorporating items found or aquired elsewhere. Thus trying to determine the source of the elements can be troublesome. One reason for their high silver or gold content was likely the use of coins in the mix. Possiblity to soften it or for increased luster

They knew enough about the alloy(s) to be able to cast a hard or soft version for whatever they where intending on using it for. The problem comes from the lack of raw copper to start with, therefore they oftentimes recycled other items or broken pieces

And to add more on the nickel, the several articles I read on the testing of Romen and Greek bronze reveiled that none of the test pieces had any nickel bar a few outliners that may have been errors in the testing.

From my understanding, nickel is a relatively new addition to the mix and not typically found in Romen bronze
 
In the Corinthian empire it was common to recycle statuary and also common to use various non-electrical plating techniques and mechanical application of gold leaf, but as there was no economically practical method of recovering the gold it was often found as a trace element in the recycled bronze. this was in addition to the silver content that was a result of dumping the slag and dross into the copper refining batches.

The silver refining technique used in Carthage and Spain both used certain copper ores to separate silver from sulfur, but left the refinery slag rich in copper compounds.

This caused the Spanish problems with smelting Peruvian silver centuries later, because silver mined in the Andes is deficient in copper compared to silver mined in North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula.

BUT you are absolutely correct all ancient metals were vigorously recycled, because actual metals were hard to obtain in antiquity.

Very few (Five) metals are ever found in their "native" (metallic) state, Gold and the Platinum metals (Which were unknown until the end of the 18th Century (1804 IIRC))
Silver is found in it's metallic state only in the absence of sulfur as silver has a vast affinity for sulfur.
Native Copper OTOH is rather common as seams, lumps and flakes in veins of the common copper ores.
Locally to me ancient Native American native mine pits have been commonly misidentified as "sink holes along the eastern side of the upper Delaware Valley. but mine sites are also common in the southern great lakes region and Niagara Valley.
Mercury is easily obtained from it's usual ores by mechanical impact (actually by the heat of smashing the stuff), so Mercury was well known as well...as were Lead and Tin which are the only two of the seven metals of antiquity not found as native metals. And oddly one of the most productive Lead ores (Galena) is actually an "intermetallic compound" (a complex Sulfide)
Interestingly in lead smelting and refining from Galina the Lead produced is pure profit!! as the usual silver content actually pays the bills! not to mention the typical Gold and Copper content that were usually separated out (even in antiquity)
 
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Can you source that to something reputable? I did a quick google search and mostly what I got were sites that also want to tell me about ancient aliens, bigfoot etc. Well that and something from Graham Hancock... who might actually be an ancient alien... :) I'm not saying it's not true but I have to think that it would have lead to something of splash in the news and I don't recall ever hearing that before... and I like to think I pay attention to new discoveries. Any insight you can provide would be appreciated

You want to research the history of metals and their mining, you probably won't find it via "google searches".

Any time someone mentions old word activity in North America Some disbelieving ass starts talking ancient aliens" or some such rot, as I never claimed aliens were involved, only sneaky/greedy humans, who when great deals of money is involved can actually keep their mouths shut... And in the ancient world ALL metals were very valuable any anyone in the world was practically a crackhead in regards to grabbing any unattended metals.

So Even ancient explorers blown far off course, would swiftly switch mental gears if while exploring a river on a new (to them) continent when they found massive amounts of copper ore and as all those ancient sailing ships used stone ballast they'd be more than happy to replace their ballast rocks with copper ingots especially since that copper ballast was worth several times anything that ship could otherwise carry
 
You want to research the history of metals and their mining, you probably won't find it via "google searches".

Any time someone mentions old word activity in North America Some disbelieving ass starts talking ancient aliens" or some such rot, as I never claimed aliens were involved, only sneaky/greedy humans, who when great deals of money is involved can actually keep their mouths shut... And in the ancient world ALL metals were very valuable any anyone in the world was practically a crackhead in regards to grabbing any unattended metals.

So Even ancient explorers blown far off course, would swiftly switch mental gears if while exploring a river on a new (to them) continent when they found massive amounts of copper ore and as all those ancient sailing ships used stone ballast they'd be more than happy to replace their ballast rocks with copper ingots especially since that copper ballast was worth several times anything that ship could otherwise carry

So... sources that provide some evidence that old world vessels in the Mediterranean were carrying Michigan ore? The sheer ancient logistics involved to make that happen would be mind boggling...
 
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