New to forging, what is the best technique for moving steel by hand.

[tsavickas36]

Another newbie question and I am sure I will feel foolish once I get the answer but thought I would post anyway.

I am taking on projects for people just to learn new things so my buddy asked me to make him a big chopper for the grill.

The tip of the blade to the handle end is around 11”. Top to bottom is around 3 1/2”.

I picked up a great deal on some 2 1/2” x 3/8 thick 52100 so thought it would be great to use it to forge out to 1/4 for the knife.

Saturday night a buddy helped, we heated it in the forge until it was screaming orange and pounded it with an 8lb sledge.

I do live in Michigan and it was only around 20 degrees so not sure if it was cooling too quick or not hot enough.

I am in pretty good shape but we pounded this thing for an hour and barely got it to move.

Not really sure where to even start but any advice would be great to get this worked out to my desired 1/4 stock.

I don’t know how to include pictures but we got it out to a little under 3” for about 6”.

 

[Scotchmon]

Another newbie question and I am sure I will feel foolish once I get the answer but thought I would post anyway.

I am taking on projects for people just to learn new things so my buddy asked me to make him a big chopper for the grill.

The tip of the blade to the handle end is around 11”. Top to bottom is around 3 1/2”.

I picked up a great deal on some 2 1/2” x 3/8 thick 52100 so thought it would be great to use it to forge out to 1/4 for the knife.

Saturday night a buddy helped, we heated it in the forge until it was screaming orange and pounded it with an 8lb sledge.

I do live in Michigan and it was only around 20 degrees so not sure if it was cooling too quick or not hot enough.

I am in pretty good shape but we pounded this thing for an hour and barely got it to move.

Not really sure where to even start but any advice would be great to get this worked out to my desired 1/4 stock.

I don’t know how to include pictures but we got it out to a little under 3” for about 6”.

You may need to use a straight peen hammer to help thin and draw. As you probably found out, just hitting it with a nearby flat face doesn’t do much quickly.

 

[Alex Topfer]

When drawing out I use two rounded dies in a fly press, you can do the same with a straight/cross peen and the horn of the anvil (or a top tool of some sort). Having a rounding face rather than a completely flat face is also useful for moving metal, a completely flat face is better for planishing and later details.
A hammer with a big face also doesn't give space for the material to move out, which might be an issue with your sledge. You have to think about where the material is going to go, there has to be space for it to move to
Look up Sam Towns videos on you tube

It's not the fastest process, i've been doing some ~18cm nakiri and that takes me about an hour with a fly press. there's a reason they invented power hammers

 

[DevinT]

Find a good deal on some 1095, 1084, or 1075, it will move a lot faster.

Option number 2: make friends with someone who has a power hammer.

Hoss

 

[weo]

Hello and welcome tsavickas36 .
New to forging, eh? As Scotchmon indicated, there's a couple things that might help move metal quicker by hand. Do a web search for "Mark Aspery's cow-poop theory" and you'll get a few videos explaining the movement of metal under a hammer (trust me on this one).
Here's a pic summarizing it (some of you older folks might recognize this picture):

 

[weo]

screaming orange

Also, this might not be hot enough, depending on what you call screaming orange. When I work mild steel stock that size (for non-knife projects, of course) I like to get to the bright yellow (or screaming yellow as the case may be) colors, and 52100 is a lot harder to move than mild steel.

 

[tsavickas36]

You may need to use a straight peen hammer to help thin and draw. As you probably found out, just hitting it with a nearby flat face doesn’t do much quickly.

I do have a couple of these hammers to will try it again.

 

[tsavickas36]

Find a good deal on some 1095, 1084, or 1075, it will move a lot faster.

Option number 2: make friends with someone who has a power hammer.

Hoss

Any suggestions where to find of the other metal? The only shop I know of in town only sells mild steel.

Everything online seems really expensive to just play around and learn on.

I may have a couple people to make quick friends with that have a hammer. Thanks for the advice

 

[tsavickas36]

Also, this might not be hot enough, depending on what you call screaming orange. When I work mild steel stock that size (for non-knife projects, of course) I like to get to the bright yellow (or screaming yellow as the case may be) colors, and 52100 is a lot harder to move than mild steel.

Okay I’ll Try getting it hotter first. I was a little excited to get hammering so may have been rushing it.

 

[tsavickas36]

Hello and welcome tsavickas36 .
New to forging, eh? As Scotchmon indicated, there's a couple things that might help move metal quicker by hand. Do a web search for "Mark Aspery's cow-poop theory" and you'll get a few videos explaining the movement of metal under a hammer (trust me on this one).
Here's a pic summarizing it (some of you older folks might recognize this picture):

I’ll check out the videos. Thanks for the visual lesson.

 

[tsavickas36]

When drawing out I use two rounded dies in a fly press, you can do the same with a straight/cross peen and the horn of the anvil (or a top tool of some sort). Having a rounding face rather than a completely flat face is also useful for moving metal, a completely flat face is better for planishing and later details.
A hammer with a big face also doesn't give space for the material to move out, which might be an issue with your sledge. You have to think about where the material is going to go, there has to be space for it to move to
Look up Sam Towns videos on you tube

It's not the fastest process, i've been doing some ~18cm nakiri and that takes me about an hour with a fly press. there's a reason they invented power hammers

Thanks for the advice I will test out the horn a bit with different hammers.

I had a line on a power hammer for $500 but it sold in 5 minutes.

I have invested a lot in equipment so will probably need to sell a lot of simple knives first before the boss will let me invest in a power hammer, lol.

 

[daily_grind]

You could also try a guillotine hammer (could also be sort of a DIY affair). Probably has a half-dozen other names it goes by.
Example:

 

[GRapp]

Any suggestions where to find of the other metal? The only shop I know of in town only sells mild steel.

Everything online seems really expensive to just play around and learn on.

I get my blade steel from the blade steel suppliers online and pay market price for it. However, I wonder if a piece of leaf spring would work for you. You can get it free or nearly free. Of course, the pros here would have to tell you about how it forges.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I see your question regularly in my mail bin. It is 99% a problem with the steel being too cold.
Cold is a relative term when it is red hot, but the color for forging most knife steels is between 1900°F and 2100°F. That looks more yellow than orange. I have observed that most new smiths try to forge around 1600°F, which barely moves the steel.
The second part of this is the steel needs to heat all the way through. this requires some time in the forge ... called "soak time". Leave it in the forge a minute or two longer and it almost always forges better.
The other issue is the lighting around the forge and the user's eyes. Noontime looks a lot different than nighttime. Some folk's eyes see very different shades at the same temperature.

Fill out your profile with your location and some info about you. There might be a maker nearby who can help you learn faster.

 

[A.McPherson]

I like to think about moving steel in lbs-per-sq.inch... the more pounds per inch you've got, the faster you can move metal.

If you've got a 2lb hammer with a two square inch face, your only getting one pound power square inch. If you've got a 2lb hammer with a 1 inch face, you've got 2 pounds per square inch. It delivers twice the force.

Obviously this is a very simplistic view on it, but the more force you can put on a single point at one time, the faster you can move metal.

If you want to see some blacksmith wizardry look up Brian Brazeal on YouTube. When demonstrating he forges super slow, but gets a massive amount of work done because of his technique (which he explains in detail). Early Alec Steele videos on YouTube are really good for this as well, his new ones not quite as much.

 

[MinusFortyForge]

Foolish Newbie here; i'm chiming in because i dealt with this fairly recently. I have also done some cold (room temp) shaping of steel. This is what helped me; maybe it will help you.
I started off using 3-1/2 lb and 2-1/2 lb hammers. i now use a 1 lb and a 1-1/2 lb.
i turn my square-faced hanmer slightly on its side to hit the metal with the corner of the hammer head, not the flat. I use the flat to hit the steel if the steel is against an angle of the anvil. So either way it's not flat on flat.
I got a ball peen hammer and worked on my aim, i found that moved the steel as well.
A lot of times i think people don't get the steel hot enough but I learned to move the steel when it was orange-red. Maybe it's how i see the color, but when i perceive too bright of an orange, my steel begins to spark or even melt. I have personally ruined more steel by overheating than by hitting too cold. I'm not saying that's the standard, that's just my experience, and i'm not a pro like these other guys, but I did go through the process of learning to make my steel "move" in the past two years, and i found it was a problem of me not utilizing angles properly and did not have to do with the heat. i was also using hammers which were too heavy for me. Honestly I think eventually i will return to heavier hammers again but i will need much more work on form before i do that.

 

[Linus Knives]

I would also go with it being to cold. From my little experience, the steels got to be yellow to really pound out {easily}. Also a straight peened hammer would definitely help. I know these suggestions were already given!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

........A lot of times i think people don't get the steel hot enough but I learned to move the steel when it was orange-red. Maybe it's how i see the color, but when i perceive too bright of an orange, my steel begins to spark or even melt. I have personally ruined more steel by overheating than by hitting too cold. .........

Just a comment on your steel temps. Steel sparks and them melts at 2700°F/1500°C. That is in the full white range 400°F/200°C above forge welding temp and 600°F/315°C above forging temps. If you see it as orange-red, it definitely is a visual issue. Turn down the forge to a lower heat and you will have much better luck. I suspect you are using a coal forge, so turn down the air blast. If it is propane, turn down the gas and adjust the air mix.

A thing that is not regularly brought up on forging safety is not to stare into the forge. The light coming out is high in IR and UV light. These sunburn your eyes and damage your eye interior. To check the blade temp, pull the object from the forge and look at it, then put it back. Avoid any more than a quick glance into the forge interior. There are special glasses made for forging to protect your eyes. The old source used to be Auralens, but they're gone. The type was called AR99. #3 shade was perfect for forging. There are others who sell them. Most folks use a pair of cheap welding glasses with #3 or #5 lenses.

Funny story.
When I switched to transition self-darkening glasses, it was nice forgoing in and out when working outside. I wear my shop glasses in the forge because they were cheaper and don't need the darkening lenses ... and because I scratch them up terribly. One day I was working in the yard and shop and needed to shape a bracket for my lawn tractor. I went to the forge and stuck in a bar of steel to shape. I was watching it heat up and doing a few clean up tasks while it got to the right color to forge. A few seconds later it was sparking and burning in half. I took it out and couldn't figure out what was wrong until I realized my glasses had turned dark from the forge UV.

 

[MinusFortyForge]

Just a comment on your steel temps. Steel sparks and them melts at 2700°F/1500°C. That is in the full white range 400°F/200°C above forge welding temp and 600°F/315°C above forging temps. If you see it as orange-red, it definitely is a visual issue. Turn down the forge to a lower heat and you will have much better luck. I suspect you are using a coal forge, so turn down the air blast. If it is propane, turn down the gas and adjust the air mix.

A thing that is not regularly brought up on forging safety is not to stare into the forge. The light coming out is high in IR and UV light. These sunburn your eyes and damage your eye interior. To check the blade temp, pull the object from the forge and look at it, then put it back. Avoid any more than a quick glance into the forge interior. There are special glasses made for forging to protect your eyes. The old source used to be Auralens, but they're gone. The type was called AR99. #3 shade was perfect for forging. There are others who sell them. Most folks use a pair of cheap welding glasses with #3 or #5 lenses.

Funny story.
When I switched to transition self-darkening glasses, it was nice forgoing in and out when working outside. I wear my shop glasses in the forge because they were cheaper and don't need the darkening lenses ... and because I scratch them up terribly. One day I was working in the yard and shop and needed to shape a bracket for my lawn tractor. I went to the forge and stuck in a bar of steel to shape. I was watching it heat up and doing a few clean up tasks while it got to the right color to forge. A few seconds later it was sparking and burning in half. I took it out and couldn't figure out what was wrong until I realized my glasses had turned dark from the forge UV.

Thank you, yes, coal forge. I have never seen steel turn "white" but i have melted far too much of it, and in learning have accidentally turned my bars into sparklers - if i didn't melt them. Eventually i realized when my bars turned solid orange, i was in danger of melting the steel. I wasn't sure if it was visual but sounds like it is. Do I stare at the forge? yup. Do i try not to - i'm working on it. i'll remember not to completely ruin my eyesight going forward!

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Above yellow it looks white.


BTW, I corrected the thread title to say STEEL.