Nicholson file

T

Temper

Joined
Oct 30, 2002
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Guys, I just bought 6 Nicholson files off an auction (NIB) I plan to have a go at making a knife from one of them and wanted to know the best way to get it soft enough to work with. I will be using only hand files, wet & dry and a hand drill for stock removal, so I guess the softer the better. I have a BBQ and a good fan (Vornado) that I can use to get it bright orange. Should I just aneal it or would putting it in the oven for a few hours be a better bet? Would any temp (as long as its red) be OK for anealing or should I try and take it to non-magnetic?

TIA
 
Get a deep bucket and fill it with vermiculite (garden store). Heat the file and two bars of steel large enough to cover the file on either side. Heat the file to non magnetic. When everything is got enough shove the file sandwiched between the bars into the vermiculite (you can substitute ashes) overnight or until cool. That should do it. Hope this helps,
 
I don't know what the steel is so I can't comment on temperatures. As Dave suggests, the cooling rate must be very-very slow. Try to imagine a 50 degree or less drop per hour for the first 10 hours and then insulate well enough to achieve that.

RL
 
Thanks for the help.

I'm living in Japan so getting some stuff is hard and I have to compromise on most things, including space (I have about 5 sq yards to work in) :grumpy:

Is there any other stuff that is readily available that would work?(Sand?) I assume the other steel is to stop it from warping? Could I 'C' clamp 3 files together and use the middle one?

The only reason I'm doing this is because I read about files and Nicholson in particular on this forum, and today by chance saw them on an auction. I get 6 10" files (smooth) for $20 so I dont mind wrecking a couple trying.
 
First - Aneal the files (detemper) by heating up to critical temperature.Check with a magnet.When it won't stick,it's the right temperature.It should be bright red.Then let them cool slowly to room temp.
Second - If you are using a fan to blow ON the coals,it won't work,it is cooling the blade as well.You want the air UNDER the coal.You don't want a big rush of air,just a steaty stream,a hair dryer would be closer than a fan.Either way use some sheet metal or heavy foil to make a sort of ductwork to direct the air under the coals.You could drill a bunch of 1/2 inch holes in the bottom of the BBQ,on one side only, and put the fan underneath the grill.Set the coals over the holes and burry the blades (files) in the coals.Keep the rest of the coals on the undrilled side,you are going to go through coal (or charcoal) fast.
Third - This may only be a practice exercise.Many modern files are only surface hardened and will not quench harden.To find out do only one file at first.Heat it till it is non magnetic and plunge it into a bucket of warm water.After it cools try to file it with a good file.If you can file it any at all it won't make a knife.If it hardens,go for it.Practice is the way to learn.
Finally - Go on the web and search "Forge",you will find plans for lots of brake drum forges.They are cheap and easy to build,and will do better than a BBQ.
Good luck.Let us know how it turns out.
 
GULP! :D Now I feel under pressure lol.

I was under the impression that that the Nicholson brand was quality steel whereas some of the cheaper imports were case hardened. Have Nicholson changed their material of late? The thing is I dont know how old the files are that I am getting, they are new but I dont think there will be anything on the box that will help. I also read that they could be either 1095 or W1 (Which one should I be hoping for?) :D
 
I think you're right about the Nicholson files. Either steel should anneal similarly. The two steel bars are to slow the cooling of the file. The key for annealing is like Roger said, very, very slow cooling. The slower you can cool the file the better.

Edited to add, sand is not insulating enough. You can use wood ashes if you can't get vermiculite. Heat the wood ashes prior by shoving heated bars into them before you start. You can also reheat those bars and shove them into the ashes round your file sandwich to keep it hotter longer.

Another edit: You might check with the Outpost guys for more guidance on this. They may have some input on your files too. Good luck!
 
Great, Thanks!

How about if I throw it in the oven at as hot as it will go for 30 mins then drop it 50 or so deg C and each 30 mins drop it another 50 until it gets to about 50 then just let it cool in the oven. Will this acheive the same result?

Or how about taking it from the BBQ, cooling the coals with some water and stopping the air flow and then just putting the metal back in and let it cool naturally along with the coals. I seem to remember that its still a little uncomfortable to touch in the A.M
 
Not unless your oven will hit 1500 degrees... :D

Rather than cooling the briquettes with water you'd be better to just let them burn out in their own time. But you might have some carbon loss doing that. Frankly I don't know about this one.
 
I just read this over at the link you so graciously posted for me


The high temp soak is not recommended. Prolonged time at high temps will cause grain growth, and that will substantially weaken your blade steel.

I used to normalize twice and then anneal, and with some steels like O1 and chromium bearing steels like 5160 and 52100, it's adviseable. I mostly use 1095 and W1, and I find 3 normalizings are as good as annealing.

What do you think?

The knife is going to be a camp utility around 230mm long (9 inches or so I guess) With an odd scandi grind. I want to leave as much thickness as possible of the file as I want to be able to baton it for splitting wood.

Another question, how hard is it to put some saw teeth on the spine? Do I need special files or will it be too hard to attempt at my level (Uber basic)
 
Another product you can use for annealing is the real cheap clay kitty litter.
 
per Ed Caffrey - ABS Mastersmith
To my knowledge, Nicholson is the only company left that uses high carbon/alloy steel to produce their files. Eveyone else has gone with case hardening. A few years ago I had several files spectrographed.......... The regular Nicholson files came back as 1095, and the Nicholson "Black Diamond" files came back as a plain carbon steel with 1.27% carbon.
Click to expand...

Another question, how hard is it to put some saw teeth on the spine? Do I need special files or will it be too hard to attempt at my level (Uber basic)
Click to expand...
"USABLE" sawteeth are a bear to make, they require a set as well as being filed properly to cut - IMO stick with a plain blade
 
Hi Temper!

Okay, I'll throw another idea at you just for consideration.

If you got 6 - 10" files for $20 that's a great buy! I recommend you keep them as files...they should be good ones.

I don't know if you'll have shipping issues going to Japan, so this may be in vain: If you go to http://www.flat-stock.com

You can buy a bar of 5/32" X 1-1/4" X 36" O1 tool steel (good size for a camp blade with Scandi grind and an excellent steel) for about $17.

It will come to you in a speroidize annealed state, very soft and easy to file and drill. Use those Nicholson files to get the bevels put in and cleaned up.

You can then use your bbq and fan and some oil., to heat-treat the steel.

I'm not trying being a lousy nay-sayer...just trying to luminate some other avenues! :D

Let us know what you do and how it goes Temper! :)
Nick
 
NickWheeler said:
Hi Temper!

Okay, I'll throw another idea at you just for consideration.

If you got 6 - 10" files for $20 that's a great buy! I recommend you keep them as files...they should be good ones.

I don't know if you'll have shipping issues going to Japan, so this may be in vain: If you go to http://www.flat-stock.com

You can buy a bar of 5/32" X 1-1/4" X 36" O1 tool steel (good size for a camp blade with Scandi grind and an excellent steel) for about $17.

It will come to you in a speroidize annealed state, very soft and easy to file and drill. Use those Nicholson files to get the bevels put in and cleaned up.

You can then use your bbq and fan and some oil., to heat-treat the steel.

I'm not trying being a lousy nay-sayer...just trying to luminate some other avenues! :D

Let us know what you do and how it goes Temper! :)
Nick
Click to expand...

Listen to Nick. He knows of what he speaketh. :)
 
Well, I am going to be in the US in a few weeks, I guess I could have it delivered to the Hotel.

Thanks for all the help guys.
 
The high temp soak is not recommended. Prolonged time at high temps will cause grain growth, and that will substantially weaken your blade steel.

I used to normalize twice and then anneal, and with some steels like O1 and chromium bearing steels like 5160 and 52100, it's adviseable. I mostly use 1095 and W1, and I find 3 normalizings are as good as annealing.
Click to expand...

I think this is refering to right before the heat treat as opposed to preparing it for stock removal. When you're ready to try hardening it then annealing right beforehand isn't optimal, but you're not at that stage yet. For stock removal normalization can be good enough for power tools but it'll suck for doing it by hand.

Sand can work if you have a large enough volume and it's preheated, but it's not the best thing. Leaving it in the forge with the blower off works alright depending on the forge design, vermiculite and pearlite are good and can be found in gardening stores since it's a soil additive, wood ashes work and I've heard crushed charcoal works well too.
 
Temper,
Spent coke is a good medium to anneal in. It has the benefit of not sticking to the blade surface and is clean as well.
Personaly speaking, I find grinding a not to soft steel structure is preferable. It gives a less taffy like surface if it's a wee bit tuffer. No deep gouges in the blade surface. I'll grind small blades in the normalized condition and anneal just the tip of the tang for drilling. I digress, if you are using hand tools to fashion this blade get it as soft as you can. Good luck and keep us posted. Fred Bethel Ridge Forge :D
 
Leave it to Nick to get to the point! :D

He's right of course. O1 is very inexpensive; you could have a knife-sized piece sent via airmail at a reasonable cost. (Especially compared to going through the annealing process etc. :D )
 
Temper said:
.... I get 6 10" files (smooth) for $20 so I dont mind wrecking a couple trying.
Click to expand...

Do you mean smooth, as in a file blank? No teeth? Or smooth as in not coarse teeth?

If its just a blank, you might as well use them for bladestock since there won't be any filing with them....if they are usable for filing though then by all means, I agree with Nick. Try to ge ahold of a peice of O1. You'll be very glad you did when your working with a clean,annealed peice of steel that you know the exact composition of and can get specific instructions for heat treating.
Good luck
 
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