no spin ??

From what I've seen it's used for short distance throwing of larger knives like the Bowie axe, etc..... You can throw over hand or underhand with no spin and it does work really well for short distances, It's very accurate and easy to learn also.
 
Basically your arm moves the knife in an arc, starting with the blade pointing away from the target, and swinging the knife towards the target. The technical point of release (usually) occurs when the knife is pointing approx 90 degrees off target (knife is vertical for a overhand throw; horizontal for a sidearm throw). The knife technically spins the additional 80 or 90 degrees on its midair course to the target.

Minimizing the spin involves putting more hips and shoulders (rather than elbow, writst, and fingers) into the throw.

Ralph Thorn, Yuri Fedin, (and now) Vladimin Vasilev are three spinless knife throwers you can look up. I have Ralph Thorn's video and book; I would recomend both.

Spinless throwing also has a historical foundation in Japanese Shuriken throwing. Shuriken are basically steel spikes, about 6.5 inches long. Here, the shuriken is palmed whereas the knife is held in a "conductors" grip (first finger extended along the spine of the knife).

I've seen video of a spinless throw from 18 meters (about 55 feet). I'm not sure if Ralph has a measurement for his best throw. So I wouldn't think of it as a short-distance throw.
 
it always seems to spin, xcept on a short distance fer like two three metres with me

so is it just a question of technique to get more non-spin distance?
 
Well, yeah.

I've been practicing everyday since May. In April, my max no-spin distance (as defined by being able to get 9 out of 10) was about 2 to 3 meters (6 to 9 feet). Now its (only) 4 meters (12 feet). If I go to 18 feet, I can only stick half of my throws.

If you think about it, in terms of self-defense, this is plenty of range for any indoor confrontation, and for most outdoor confrontations. Ralph talks about it more in his book: If you throw a knife at someone whos 20 feet away, that is (usually) an offensive move, not defensive, because you could probably run away. Furthermore, attackers usually wait until the last possible minute to reveal their intentions (I'm not going to say 'give me your money' from 20 feet away). If you think about it, the chances of you throwing a knife from almost point-blank is pretty high.

On the other hand, me and you both would like to extend that range! Why not?

That being said, you can look at some vids to compare short to long distance no-spin throwing:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=zabaksmers

Vid #1 is our beloved Ralph Thorn. Vids #2 &3 are Yuri Fedin. His long range throws are done with a blade-grip and 1/2 spin, however.

Also

http://www.youtube.com/user/mumyouan

This is Houzan Suzuki (who has his own youtube site and website, I guess mumyouan is his translator or something). He mostly throws shurikens, but his "shurikens" are so big and heavy that they are knives to me. (His vids tell you range and weight of his blades, which is nice) Anyway, compare his body mechanics in his 6 meter throws to his 18 meter throws. He is apparently a fan of Ralph Thorn because he has a link to Ralph's site, and his long-range technique is straight out of Ralph's video, in my eyes. (Whereas his short-range technique is the traditional Japanese technique).

To sum up the long range throw, in my words (which come from seing these vids, not experience - maybe Ralph can add to this), the movements of the legs, hips, and shoulders are exaggrated, while the motion of the elbow and wrist are not exaggerated. The throw looks like it starts lower (i.e. the hand holding the blade is held at chest-level rather than ear level), and the release is sooner (It looks to me like the throw takes place entirely behind the head - i.e. by the time the hand is passing the ear, the knife has already been released). Also, the follow through and leg-work is more dramatic (Both Ralph and Houzan Suzuki finish their throw with their bodies leaning left, their right legs in the air, and thier right hands down at their left knees). And the knife itself is released when it is pointing vertically (or even before).

Another thing I notice is that they keep the plane of the throw truly vertical for long-distance; whereas for shorter-distance, the plane of the throw is at a more natural offset. I think this is why they lean to the left, and I think the right leg is raised to couter-balance the body.

Anyway, I personally don't stress about the long-range throw. I just try to add a foot to my range every week or two. Ralph, how did you get your long-range? By working backwards or just by doing it (in other words, do you think the ability to throw close-range is a prerequisite for long-range?)?

Hope this helps, and I would like to hear any tips because I'm pretty much in the same boat.
 
Also, it seems you need something thats long enough and heavy enough to get some range out of a throw. See Houzan's videos to get an idea of just how big and how heavy, because he throws small and light stuff too. I would say at least 9" and at least 200g/7oz... but I'm just pulling those numbers out of the air (I read 1oz per inch is a good formula, but that seems heavy to me).
 
Houzan is a pal of mine. He's responsible for getting my dvd some distribution in Tokyo. He takes a very scientific approach to throwing and is an absolute sponge for new information. And yes, I think I have had some influence on him as far as long range throwing is concerned. He seems to have decided to use larger knives, with the balance more in the handle and more wrist action for the long throws. Recently he has been working out the best weights for shuriken at various ranges, as well as the most aerodynamic shapes.

Mumyouan is the name of his website, mumyouan.com. He uses an automatic translator online, though he also has a friend who speaks English and helps him sometimes with translation.

What I said about power throwing in my dvd applies to getting longer range with the no-spin. The main points are to throw from an overhand angle, straight up and down (12 to 6 oclock arm angle), because you can generate more velocity that way. The other thing is really just practice. You naturally gain range and power as you get better.

Shuriken style has excellent range using the small spikes they prefer. Houzan is talking lately about fifty feet no spin throws; his mentor has gone to 55 feet. But those throw are really just experimental.

To throw shuriken style, place your index finger on the balance point of the weapon and use a more "frozen" release, an abrupt release. To throw my style, flip the wrist and let the weapon slide out more gradually.

ert
 
Thanks Ralph! Small world.

I've been confused about Mumyouan: there is a youtube site/user called muyouan, with Houzan's vids. Whoever answers questions on this site is not Houzan. Then Houzan also has his own YouTube site, with pretty much the same vids.

I see what you mean about his long-range throws: they are really inaccurate and his commentary has a "lets see what happens" connotation.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of background does his mentor hail from? I ask because a lot of his stuff seems like bujinkan/ninjitsu. Also I can't help but ask how you guys got linked up.

I know Houzan has videos also. Is the dvd distribution recriprocal? Can you get his vids? Is it true they are all in Japanese? Are they semi-instructional or just demos? Doesn't he also sell/make shuriken/knives (I saw a pic of some on the site listed below)?

For those intertersted in shuriken throwing, this is a pretty good site if you have the patience to navagate through it:
http://www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au/index1.htm

Thanks again
 
His mentor, Mr. Handa, comes from a background of traditional Japanese martial arts. I am afraid I can't tell you much beyond that, other than the fact that there are online video clips of Mr. Handa floating around throwing from past 50 feet, and also I remember seeing a video of him doing a demonstration of Japanese ritual sword-swinging.

Houzan got in touch with me after seeing my dvd (where he got it, I am still unsure). I was already acquainted with a couple of his students/associates (incidentally, one of whom does the shuriken site you linked). He told me it was the most shocking thing he had seen in throwing.

Houzan distributes videos meant for his students only. They are in Japanese but he includes English instructions on paper. I have some of them but I would not distribute them without his permission. I don't know how you might have found out about them. Email me personally if you are seriously interested in those or other videos.

To my knowledge Houzan does not sell weapons but he is constantly experimenting with new kinds. He is very generous and has sent a variety of throwing implements to me and many others at his own expense.
 
Thanks for the info.

One of his vids on YouTube is Mr. Handa; so I know who you mean.

I tried to email you; your email is turned off or something.
 
aha after seing that zabaksmers knife throwing 2 video, i am going to change style and try something
 
I know the feeling - that two-wave method is pretty nasty. If I didn't already provide this link, here is a descripton of that technique in Fedin's words:

http://www.knifethrowing.info/wave-throw.html

Note he does a handle-grip for short range and a blade-grip for long-range.

I am a master of neither Thorn's nor Fedin's techniques (my range for both maxes out at 12-15 feet), but I do have some observations to toss out there:

First and foremost, I've found it most useful for me to focus on the similarities, rather than the differences, between Thorn's style and Fedin's style.

Fedin's style starts with a wind up, in which the arm is moved backwards. FROM THAT POINT ON (i.e. the moment after the windup but before the swing), I think the two styles are pretty much the same.

Fedin's style seems to let you throw smaller knives than Throrns' from the same distance.

Fedin's style seems to let the thrower remain more "grounded" than Throrn's style, in terms keeping your balance. Also interesting is Fedin's claim that his throw uses mostly chest and thigh muscles, thus allowing one to throw with a wounded arm.

Also interesting: the two-wave aka "whip" (Fedin's) technique is also the only technique that works for the Chinese Flying Dart (according to the only person I've ever heard of that throws them; Jeff Adams). The CFD is just a metal spike (like a shuriken), but only 5" or less. Jeff Adams says he can throw the CFD from 30 feet with no spin. Wow!
 
Secrets of Shuriken is a great resource, and Fedin is THE MAN.

A few 6" nails and a cardboard box are all you need to learn shuriken techniques. Plus, throwing two or three at a time is fun and easy. I've stuck Bic pens in pizza boxes, too. Just go slow, experiment, and don't get frustrated.

Oh, and don't forget either the Ki-Ai Scream or Ninja Hiss.

Take care.
 
It's a long arc, very easy. Just takes practice/muscle memory. Let the knife slip out of your hand shortly before it become horizontal, and follow through.
If you're having spinning problems, try using a symmetrical knife. The Cold Steel Spike is really easy to throw like this (and you won't feel guilty for beating on it).
EDIT: Ok, kudos to me for not realizing the threads been dead for a month.
 
this may be a dumb question... in crocodile dundee he threw a spinless throw everytime he threw that bowie. was that movie magic or did they have a pro on set doing the throws?
 
dont remember that, but the last spinless throw i saw in a movie was clearly a knife shot from a machine hidden behind the camera
 
I have always thought that spinning (more than one full turn) throws are not reality based throws,kind of like the things you see mainly in films. I think the spinless throws (or max one or half spin (this is better) depending on how you hold a knife and distance) are the way to go in real (combat) situation.
 
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