noob mistake - how do i undo my shaving sharp edge safely?

What everyone needs to bear in mind is that a chopping tool is best sharpened at a more obtuse angle such as an axe has..not to compare it with an axe....

THIS is the critical bit.

One can have shaving sharpness AND a relatively obtuse angle, it's just that in the case of a shaving-sharp blade, the very edge will be refined to a higher degree of polish.

Most HI's are pretty beefy with obtuse edge geometry to being with... by the time I get done touching them up on a grinder, they're often a tiny bit more so... but also much sharper at the same time.

Edit: to illustrate, here's the vid of my "Fugly" AK Bowie shaving hair. The thing has a more obtuse angle than my bonecutter, but is nontheless keen. If anything, the extra mass near the main bevel hampers the chopping process by wedging in the wood, rather than the keenness of the very edge:

[youtube]LM7cqLkpK4Y[/youtube]

In my experience felling and limbing trees with my Samsher and Bonecutter, the notion of "too sharp for chopping" strikes me as buncombe. Perhaps more accurately we should say a blade can be too acute for chopping?

Selane8, before you go roughing up that edge and undoing your hard work, I'd suggest you try visually inspecting the edge geometry on the belly of the blade and try to gauge the angle. If it resembles a hatchet or axe in cross section, or even if it's a bit thinner, you're probably good to go with decent chopping technique.
 
Perhaps more accurately we should say a blade can be too acute for chopping?

I like this because it gets away from the term "sharp" and talks more to the idea of having the right amount of steel to support the edge for the job at hand. Well done C.S.
 
How are you guys getting the obtuse angles freehand?

Any tips?

Never sharpened a knife before, read the faq on the HI site and bought the stuff, DTC diafold, strop, and green compound for the strop. I have an ASTK that arrived with a few rolled spots and if I'm going to clean it up I might as well put a good angle on it and sharpen it up.
 
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Thin edge thats dull = more force being applied to the thin edge because it's not able to cut through the media.
Thick edge thats sharp = more force being applied to the metal behind the edge because the edge itself cuts through, the thickness of the metal behind it stops the blade and absorbs more of the force.

A dull knife is a dangerous one. By making your edge dull for use your risking damage to a thin edge, or damage to the blade itself with a dull thick edge because it will no longer be a chopping knife: It will be a hammer.
 
So what is an adequately obtuse angle anyway? I guess for small knives most go for a very acute angle of 20 degrees.......by this definition even a 45 degree angle would be a big improvement for a Khukuri. 90 maybe? Or is that unrealistic?
 
i keep all of my choppers shaving sharp. I don't know why you'd want it less than shaving sharp
 
What everyone needs to bear in mind is that a chopping tool is best sharpened at a more obtuse angle such as an axe has..not to compare it with an axe....and when you shaving sharp an edge it is a finer less obtuse edge, and thats where problems can occur. The more mass behind the cutting edge the sturdier it is.
I guess if i were doing it, i'd use the stone to carefully dull the edge and the put the edge back on until you feel it's just gotten sharp. A chopping edge should sort of cut paper, but mostly tear and should not be able to push cut."

I have a 16" sirupate. I love it because it is a khukuri that can also perform like a regular knife. I keep it razor sharp and have never had to worry about chipping the blade. But I always make sure to maintain my convex grind. I use it for chopping light firewood and downing greenwood. But i also use it for random bushcraft tasks such as making feather sticks, traps, and other tools.... I have cut down some trees that were 6 inches in diameter with it tho.
 
I couldn't really get any of the DMT flat diafolds to do anything, they are too short. Same for the strop, just ended up shaving off chunks of leather.

I ended up getting a very long DMT ceramic rod. It lets me get the whole length of the blade and I try to hold it at 45 degrees. Hopefully I did a decent job.......I did remove all of the rolled parts, but it didn't get shaving sharp. The only downside is carelessness made me hit the tip coming back a few times.......damaged the rod and pushed a minute amount of metal of the tip I think as it was crazy sharp before and maybe a barely noticeable amount less now.
 
Yvsa used to say that a knife sharpened by free hand will naturally get a convex edge over time based on how one holds the knife and basic angles at which our hands work. That said, it may not end up with an EVEN convex nor an IDEAL one, but you should end up with a "chubby V".

I keep my choppers axe-sharp mostly, especially if they were made with a somewhat thin edge. For me, axe-sharp = hair-scraping sharp. My fighters get an edge that would send shivers down the devil's pointy tail. If I can't shave a free hanging arm hair at least two times, it goes back to the strop. I have never used a sharpening system like the Sharp Maker. I start out with a series of very generic and basic stones until I get the edge 95%. Then I'll take a hard burnishing tool like a good chakma and "weed out" the softer parts of the wiry edge. By going back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, I am basically going from straightening out the edge to eventually bending off the burr. Finally, I take the blade to a piece of leather loaded with compound and strop and strop and strop. If I have been careful with the stones, the stropping will finish out a nice convex edge that will shave AND stand up to reasonable abuse (this of course depends on the beef behind the edge, the weight of the knife, etc).

A series of sandpaper will work just as well as stones, but the sound bugs me:D
 
This is harder than I thought. I think my attempt at putting a 45 degree edge on this knife ended updulling it.
 
This is harder than I thought. I think my attempt at putting a 45 degree edge on this knife ended updulling it.

For a convexed edge, like an axe, an angle of about 25 degrees is recommended.
Doesn't seem like a khukuri needs to be more obtuse than an axe.

"...The angle is about 25 degrees, but is slightly convex."
from "An Ax to Grind" by Bernie Weisgerber
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/recreational_trails/publications/fs_publications/99232823/page15.cfm#sharp

fig068.jpg
 
Ok, makes sense to me then why it is crappy now.

I know most knives are around 20, so when I heard "more obtuse" I took it way too far.
 
Never sharpened a knife before, read the faq on the HI site and bought the stuff, DTC diafold, strop, and green compound for the strop. I have an ASTK that arrived with a few rolled spots and if I'm going to clean it up I might as well put a good angle on it and sharpen it up.

Ahh. If you've never sharpened before, learning the angles and getting a feel for the process can take time. I've only been freehanding for about 6 years now, give or take a few months. I started out on a Sypderco sharpmaker, and eventually just started using the stones freehand when the pre-defined angles no longer seemed appropriate to the blades I was buying, whether thinner or thicker than the typical knife.
My own advice for a beginner (and bear in mind this is only one of many possible approaches to take) would be to invest some money in a cheap but serviceable belt grinder with some sharpening belts to learn on. Since you've already got some DMT stones and a strop, You can get away with only buying the more coarse grits of belt I'd recommend practicing with some cheap dull kitchen knives. The combination of thin steel and dull edge seems to me a good specimen to start on.
The speed of a belt grinder lets you appreciate the effect of the angles more readily than slowly grinding away by hand. Of course, don't overheat the blade by lingering too long or using too much pressure. First, you'll be able to visibly see where the edge is being ground, and you can check it with your fingertips to see if there's an appreciable change in the feel of it. I usually start with a narrower angle for as much grinding as I have the patience for, then slowly increase the angle, getting slightly more obtuse until I can feel a burr forming. once I've got a burr on the entire edge (or MOST of the edge with the most stubborn dull blades) that's when I usually switch to hand honing with diamonds and ceramic stones. Going by feel at this stage is all the more critical to me, since the effects on the edge will be less noticeable to the naked eye. It's also important to get the burr off with a low-medium grit stone. I work up to higher grits after feeling the difference with each stage, and once it's about shaving sharp, I strop to finish it off.
It sounds easier to read it laid out here, but grasping the ideas and getting the proper feel can take practice.

So what is an adequately obtuse angle anyway? I guess for small knives most go for a very acute angle of 20 degrees.......by this definition even a 45 degree angle would be a big improvement for a Khukuri. 90 maybe? Or is that unrealistic?

90! WHOAH! :eek: Even 45 degree, way too steep. If you have a protractor, go take a look.
A rule of thumb I use is that it's generally much easier to make a narrow profile a little more obtuse than it is to remove a lot of steel from an overly thick profile. I'd get the thinning of the profile out of the way first. One can always increase the angle later if it ends up a bit on the delicate side.

I couldn't really get any of the DMT flat diafolds to do anything, they are too short. Same for the strop, just ended up shaving off chunks of leather.

I ended up getting a very long DMT ceramic rod. It lets me get the whole length of the blade and I try to hold it at 45 degrees. Hopefully I did a decent job.......I did remove all of the rolled parts, but it didn't get shaving sharp. The only downside is carelessness made me hit the tip coming back a few times.......damaged the rod and pushed a minute amount of metal of the tip I think as it was crazy sharp before and maybe a barely noticeable amount less now.

With stropping, you want to be stroking AWAY from the edge. Lead with the spine, edge trailing, as they say.
Depending on the grit of DMT's you're using, and the initial state of the edge you're trying to sharpen, it can be a VERY tedious process to get a serviceable edge. Much as I like a lot of HI's stuff, almost every blade I have has needed a lot of initial grinding to get rid of most of the dull spots. This is where some kind of power grinding comes in handy. A REAL time saver. You may draw scorn from hand-sharpening purists, but life's too short, especially if you're working a full-time job between sharpenings. :D
The length of your DMT's can, to an extent be overcome by using multiple, short strokes along overlapping sections of a long edge until you span the whole blade. Don't worry a lot about keeping the same length or number of strokes each pass... as long as your angles are relatively consistent, a sloppy, organic approach is probably better for avoiding too much wear on any given spots on the blade.
And more pressure doesn't often help, but can increase the chance of developing a wire edge, which can seem deceptively sharp at times, then completely lousy other times. It's basically a very thin ribbon of steel along the edge that, while sharp, is flexible and can bend from side to side with pressure. Basically it's like a long smooth burr... treat it as such and get rid of it!

This is harder than I thought. I think my attempt at putting a 45 degree edge on this knife ended updulling it.

I did something like this with my Everest Katana when I was using waterstones for the first time. I used an approximated 2 degree angle for each side on a coarse stone, which was probably bad enough, but then I also didn;t account for the slurry that builds up on a waterstone, which basically "wraps around" the edge in a semi-liquid form, increasing the angle all the more. The Everest has never been shaving sharp, I'm afraid, and I don't know if I'll ever be able to reverse that mistake without a LOT of time or a professional grinding setup.
 
Thanks for the tips, I really am clueless here. I am in a new area now and no longer have my gunsmith friend (who also made knives from scratch and had fantastic grinders and equipment) living nearby to sharpen stuff for me.

I have the Diafolds in every grit from black to tan. I also have the white (ceramic) DMT sharpening steel which is what I messed it up with since I put the wrong angle on it. I have the red and green steel coming to try and correct that, since it seems to me using a 12-14" rod was relatively easy to follow the countour and great length of the Khukuri. I will definitely look into a belt grinder, though I am VERY wary of removing too much metal as Karda advised against in this very thread.

I agree though about the edges that they arrive with. The reason I embarked on this to begin with is one of them has some extra soft metal rolled to one side around the belly and near the cho that I wanted gone and 2 of my Kardas have arrived very dull. I know this is probably for safety but I would like my users to be as sharp as is safe and still strong enough for the blade to work as intended.
 
if my kershaw leek can not shave my arm then I keep sharping it until it does. I cut alot of cardboard and belive me it will dull the knife out.
 
To be specific with the question asked,

Every knife you own should be as thin as it can be given the capabilities of the steel (as heat treated) and the task it's going to be employed in. If the steel is capable of taking super thin .010" thick 8 degree per side edge and maintain itself, then thats going to get you the best possible performance.

If your steel is capable of maintaining at .020" thick at the edge with an 15 degree per side edge angle while chopping wood - you'll get amazing performance out of it.

In the case of HI knives, I set mine at .030-.040" thick directly behind the cutting edge with a 24 degree per side main edge bevel, and an 18 or 21 degree relief bevel to get the thickness down to .030-.040". I've found most of the edges to be stable at that thickness. Any thicker and you start to lose performance, any thinner and you start to run into possible chips and deformation. If you go thinner, you have to be more crisp with your technique, trying to keep your angle of attack clean with no deflections, trying to avoid knots when possible, watching for inclusions like small branches wherever possible.

(degree's are all 'per side')
Untitled.jpg


and a general description (my opinions) of overall geometries. Just a rough overview of what edges look like along the spectrum from paper thin kitchen knife to ground down axe/wedge.
goodbadgeometry.jpg
 
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To be specific with the question asked,

Every knife you own should be as thin as it can be given the capabilities of the steel (as heat treated) and the task it's going to be employed in. If the steel is capable of taking super thin .010" thick 8 degree per side edge and maintain itself, then thats going to get you the best possible performance.

If your steel is capable of maintaining at .020" thick at the edge with an 15 degree per side edge angle while chopping wood - you'll get amazing performance out of it.

In the case of HI knives, I set mine at .030-.040" thick directly behind the cutting edge with a 24 degree per side main edge bevel, and an 18 or 21 degree relief bevel to get the thickness down to .030-.040". I've found most of the edges to be stable at that thickness. Any thicker and you start to lose performance, any thinner and you start to run into possible chips and deformation. If you go thinner, you have to be more crisp with your technique, trying to keep your angle of attack clean with no deflections, trying to avoid knots when possible, watching for inclusions like small branches wherever possible.

(degree's are all 'per side')
Untitled.jpg


and a general description (my opinions) of overall geometries. Just a rough overview of what edges look like along the spectrum from paper thin kitchen knife to ground down axe/wedge.
goodbadgeometry.jpg
My head is going to pop trying to analyze the benefits vs costs on these edge profiles. Since you seem to be quite well educated on the subject, I have a kitchen knife (as I work in a kitchen) that has a crappy edge retention (<56 rockwell if I remember right). I pride myself on having one of the best edges in the house, but the once or twice weekly sharpening on a waterstone is starting to grate on me.

For your sub-par french knife, is the EDC slicer too thin?
 
Wow, so it is actually supposed to be "per side" then. I thought that if you wanted a 25 degree edge that you would just aim for a 12.5 degree angle as you sharpened each side.

Thanks.
 
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