O-1 vs stainless steels

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Brutus013

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How do common stainless steels compare to O-1 as far as edge retention goes, assuming good heat treats for each and similar edge geometries/blade thickness etc. Specifically, I'm interested in AUS8, 14C28, and VG10
 
Haven't tried O1.
Have tried and tested 1095, as well as all the others you list.
I find the edge retentions go about like this for slicing cuts of manila rope:
14C28 is less than AUS8 or 1095 which is less than VG10

I find that 1095 has edge retention similar to that of AUS8.
 
Ok, thanks. I would guess O1 would be somewhere between AUS8/1095 and VG10, then, with the added vanadium and tungsten it has.
 
Exactly, 1095 (or 01) at 65HRC will cut circles around VG-10 at 57 HRC, and vice versa, though I don't know that VG-10 can get that high.

The principle difference you will notice is that stainless steels will stay sharper if not taken care of, as their edges are not as prone to oxidation. On the other hand, the lower-chromium steels tend to enjoy more ductility, and thus can make use of extremely thin edge geometries without being as prone to chipping. It's not that they WON'T chip, but they're more likely to roll, which is a far quicker fix. As I like to run pocket knife edges at around 10 degrees per side, I greatly prefer carbon steels like O1. I do prefer stainless in the kitchen, however.
 
Brutus013 said:
...assuming good heat treats for each and similar edge geometries/blade thickness etc.
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I didn't mention hrc specifically, but I figured it was so obvious as to be a given.

The ductility and rolling vs. chipping is something I hadn't thought of, good point. I didn't realize chromium reduced ductility, good to know.
 
Brutus013 said:
I didn't mention hrc specifically, but I figured it was so obvious as to be a given.

The ductility and rolling vs. chipping is something I hadn't thought of, good point. I didn't realize chromium reduced ductility, good to know.
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As I understand it (but a metallurgist or maker will be more informed), some of the chromium gets tied up in carbides (Cr3C2) which, while they enhance abrasion resistance in a good HT, reduce ductility due to the increased number and relative size of carbides in the edge - chromium carbides separate/chip-out more easily.
 
totally non-scientific but I used a BHK Tiger Knapp in O1 and a Buck 486 in 420HC to cut carpet padding and I had to touch them up equally over the course of the night. I'd expected the O1 to last longer but it wasn't the case. I chose them because they both had similar grind and edge thickness.
 
I can't believe all the bad information just in this one thread.....

Steels don't perform because we want them to, edge retention.

Wear resistance is based on alloy content and HRC Hardness period, there is no way around that FACT.

So the steel with the highest percentage of formed carbides at the highest hardness will have the best wear resistance (Edge retention)

That's assuming a good HT of the steels and like blade and edge geometry, thickness etc.

If not then one is comparing knives, not steels or should I say apples to oranges.

That said there would be no reason to use a low alloy non stainless over a stainless steels like the ones listed unless one just wanted to. There are much better options avaiable in non stainless than 1095 and O1, both have low carbon and alloy content.
 
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I think O-1 is an excellent steel however it rusts easily. It is mostly used by custom forgers because it is very forgiving in the heat treat. Its very tough and takes a superb edge very easily. Some say A2 has similar properties but with better edge retention. I would personally choose O-1 over the steels that you mentioned but it would need a good coating to prevent rust. Like Mad Dog do with their hard chrome coating. Also Treeman Knives with their Chromium Dense coating. However, there are far better steels available than any of those mentioned so unless you are dead set on them, it just doesnt make sense.
 
Yeah, O1 discolored from using that knife the first couple of times, I'm talking about the handle not the blade. Just holding it during use put a stain on the bare steel handle.
 
Ankerson said:
Wear resistance is based on alloy content and HRC Hardness period, there is no way around that FACT.

So the steel with the highest percentage of formed carbides at the highest hardness will have the best wear resistance (Edge retention)

That's assuming a good HT of the steels and like blade and edge geometry, thickness etc.
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But therein lies the rub, different heat-treatments of steels with different alloy content to different HRC. With the higher alloy content of a steel with >13% Cr, it is possible to HT the steel such that much of the Chromium gets tied up in carbides which, as you said, improve wear resistance. HOWEVER, at high HRC those large carbides can become a liability, fracturing out of the edge and leading to enhanced edge degradation due to chipping. At lower HRC, loss of edge due to fracturing may be less likely to occur, but loss due to edge deformation (rolling rather than wearing away) becomes a concern.
So what is the proper HT of the steel? Well, the one that maximizes edge retention... but that may be at a lower HRC than another steel of different alloy content. Not so?
 
Just for the record, I didn't list these steels because of them being high performing stainless/carbon steels. They are simply very, very common, especially in low-mid priced production and custom knives. I can't afford super steels so I didn't ask about them, I realize they will vastly outperform the steels I mentioned.
 
chiral.grolim said:
But therein lies the rub, different heat-treatments of steels with different alloy content to different HRC. With the higher alloy content of a steel with >13% Cr, it is possible to HT the steel such that much of the Chromium gets tied up in carbides which, as you said, improve wear resistance. HOWEVER, at high HRC those large carbides can become a liability, fracturing out of the edge and leading to enhanced edge degradation due to chipping. At lower HRC, loss of edge due to fracturing may be less likely to occur, but loss due to edge deformation (rolling rather than wearing away) becomes a concern.
So what is the proper HT of the steel? Well, the one that maximizes edge retention... but that may be at a lower HRC than another steel of different alloy content. Not so?
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Nothing is ever that simple.

Given a proper HT and tempering process of the steels they will perform as expected, all else being equal.

Have to tailor the steels HT to the given use of the knife.

Also some steels are just better suited for certian tasks than others so that has to be taken into consideration also.

13% Cr doesn't mean much unless there is enough Carbon or Nitrogen in the alloy to make the carbides.

Nothing is really that simple as I said.

At the higher HRC given a proper HT and tempering it will improve edge stability, not decrease it.

All steels will fail at some point, they will either roll or they will chip, but one of those 2 things will happen in the end if pushed to the point of failure.

Just because a steel has a high alloy content doesn't mean it won't hold up to cutting tasks if it's done correctly.

One just can't read a post or 10 and get all the answers.
 
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Brutus013 said:
Just for the record, I didn't list these steels because of them being high performing stainless/carbon steels. They are simply very, very common, especially in low-mid priced production and custom knives. I can't afford super steels so I didn't ask about them, I realize they will vastly outperform the steels I mentioned.
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VG-10 or AUS-8 would be the answer in that order.

Of the steels listed there would be no reason not to go with the stainless steels.
 
Ankerson said:
VG-10 or AUS-8 would be the answer in that order.

Of the steels listed there would be no reason not to go with the stainless steels.
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Well, except for the fact that the knife that spurred the question is only available in O1, haha. It's not that I had an option between these, I was just curious as to how they would perform comparatively. Right now I only own one knife, and it's in O1, so I can't really compare myself (I also haven't used a stainless knife for a long time, so memory is of no help). As far as no reason to go with a carbon steel over a stainless, I also disagree there. I enjoy a good patina, which is never ever going to happen with AUS8 or VG10. I wasn't asking which steel to choose at the exclusion of the others, simply how the steels compare.
 
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Brutus013 said:
Well, except for the fact that the knife that spurred the question is only available in O1, haha. It's not that I had an option between these, I was just curious as to how they would perform comparatively. Right now I only own one knife, and it's in O1, so I can't really compare myself (I also haven't used a stainless knife for a long time, so memory is of no help). As far as no reason to go with a carbon steel over a stainless, I also disagree there. I enjoy a good patina, which is never ever going to happen with AUS8 or VG10. I wasn't asking which steel to choose at the exclusion of the others, simply how the steels compare.
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Not much of a choice then if it's only avaible in one steel now is it? ;)
 
Ankerson said:
Not much of a choice then if it's only avaible in one steel now is it? ;)
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Such is life! Not too bad a thing, though. While O1 may not hold its edge at industry standard hardnesses much/any better than AUS8 (although it still seems like it should be better than AUS8 and not up to VG10's standard to me), that's still pretty decent. And like I said, I like me some patina!
 
It also depends on application. Many prefer stainless in folders due to the ease of maintenance. However, in a larger fixed blade, a tool steel will offer greater toughness and lateral strength. So if you're after a fixed blade, O-1 is probably the best choice. In a folder, then I would vote for VG-10 definitely. Or 154CM or Bohler N690. All excellent 'entry level' steels.

Brutus013 said:
Such is life! Not too bad a thing, though. While O1 may not hold its edge at industry standard hardnesses much/any better than AUS8 (although it still seems like it should be better than AUS8 and not up to VG10's standard to me), that's still pretty decent. And like I said, I like me some patina!
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Brutus013 said:
Such is life! Not too bad a thing, though. While O1 may not hold its edge at industry standard hardnesses much/any better than AUS8 (although it still seems like it should be better than AUS8 and not up to VG10's standard to me), that's still pretty decent. And like I said, I like me some patina!
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I have a fuzzy memory of folks going on about forcing patinas somewhere on this forum. I'm not sure what all would be involved in doing that to VG10 or AUS8, but if you could get a good patina going on that stuff you'd have one sweet looking blade with minimal rust issues. Anyone know if this is workable?
 
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