O:T: hardening wooden knives

K

Kevin the grey

Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
4,106
I saw a nice small dagger made from thornwood . I wanted to make a small dagger for myself out of hickory as I don,t know what thornwood is except its supposed to grow in England . There is supposed to be a method of soaking hickory in water overnight and then fire hardening it . Has anyone heard of this technique and can shed some light on it ?
 
Kevin the grey said:
There is supposed to be a method of soaking hickory in water overnight and then fire hardening it . Has anyone heard of this technique and can shed some light on it ?
Click to expand...

Kevin I've never firehardened well seasoned wood although I have fire hardened slightly seasoned wood but never any hickory, just ash.
Many moons ago we used to cut bow wood and rough out the bow and then rub the wood down thoroughly with some kind of grease to replace the water drying out of the wood.
The grease helped keep the wood from cracking.
I never used grease like bear or other animal but used copious amounts of veggie oil on freshly cut wood.
Makes the wood a bitch to sand with sandpaper but lends itself well to scraping.:thumbup:
The trick is to just barely char the wood. (Actually it can be quite charred if you have left ample to scrape off like on a shaft for a wood spear) but since I was doing it on bows I wanted it highly controlled so I would heat it until it started turning color and then watch carefully and remove it from the fire just before it charred.
It helps to have a somewhat wet cloth handy just in case you want to cool it quickly.

Fire hardening wood does increase its durability but it still is a long way from a sharp stone or piece of metal of any kind.;)
 
I,m no wood carver . Everyone starts somewhere and theres no better place to start at than the beginning . L:O:L

I will make a simple single bevel chopper then if I have success I will move on to a double bevel . I have only heard of the water soaking . I imagine the grease may have a similar effect . It may be the trick iis to saturate the woodwith water . I just can,t imagine hickory soaking up too much water .Its so dense .
 
Everyone seems on the mark as far as guidance is concerned . While the technique I heard of may just be a variation on a theme it does seem to me to have a difference . The greasing method seems as close to what I,ve heard and in truth may work with at least the same efficiency as soaking the wood . I have a few projects which all have a common goal .Sharpenning my drawknife which will allow me to shape my wood blade . Finding a striker for my flint . Making char cloth for the spark . Perhaps the most important skill will be the actual starting of the fire .Oops how do I make char cloth without
a fire ? This may be a chicken and the egg thing .I,ll let you guys know how I progress .
 
Kevin,
You've asked many interesting questions since getting here and I get to learn hearing the answers from the Old Hands, like Yvsa and others. So, thank you.





munk
 
Here's a bit of info of direct use

"Lignin melts at elevated temperatures [> 90° wet, > 160° dry"
[C-degrees I'm certain // that's >194'F & >320'F]
[so below the burning point of wood]

another source:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1990/caulf90a.pdf
says "whereas isolated dry lignin softens at a temperature close to 200°C, in water its transition is lowered to about 80°C - 90°C.
Hemicellulose is even more moisture-sensitive; soften at about 55°C at a moisture content of 23%."

& with lots of info to follow up on---

something I've been meaning to do for a couple of years :rolleyes:

French Fried Bamboo
"For the adventurous, there's an intriguing wood treatment which bypasses most of the traditional bamboo drying/treatment processes and that's to french-fry the green culm in hot non-catalyzed tung oil. Cut the culm and drill out the nodes. Heat a tube of oil to about 350 F. Introduce the green culm. When all boiling and other activity ceases cut the heat and allow the oil to cool with the culm submerged.

Here's what happens: All moisture is expelled as it's turned into steam and escapes as bubbles. All lignin in the wood is hardened as the oil temperature is above its hardening point. All the surface waxes will be melted and removed. During the cool-down period any air which was greatly expanded at 350 F. contracts and atmospheric pressure drives the oil into the wood. Wipe all excess oil from your culm and submit to the standard 3 month drying period.

The result will be bamboo which has had it's starches and sugars stabilized, all moisture removed and be thoroughly impregnated with hardened linoxyn. The wood will be markedly hardened and strengthened--being waterproof, dent proof, etc. The modulus of elasticity will drop considerably and the material will become even more rigid and 'musical'. The major component of a Stradivarius violin is the treated wood of the top plate. It's acoustical properties are what we recognize as exceptional sound. Once the culm has cured, craft a flute in your usual manner."

from:
http://www.navaching.com/shaku/oil.html

==========================

http://www.inbar.int/publication/txt/INBAR_Technical_Report_No09.htm
"The essential step involved in oil-curing is to keep the rattan stems immersed in an oil medium just below boiling point for a certain amount of time - 5-10 to 30-40 minutes, depending on the species and diameter. During this process, waxy materials, gums and resins will be dissolved and therefore removed from the cane, and the moisture in the cane will be reduced. The superfluous oil is immediately rubbed off from the cured rattan. "

=============================

misc other references that have some related content/info:

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-112399-131003/unrestricted/03ch2.pdf


http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/vsp/jbr/2002/00000001/00000004/art00005
http://www.nasaexplores.com/show2_912a.php?id=01-061&gl=912


~
~~~~~~~~~
<:eek:> THEY call me 'Dean' :)-fYI-fWiW-iIRC-JMO-M2C-YMMV-TiA-YW-GL-HH-HBd-IBSCUtWS-theWotBGUaDUaDUaD
<> Noobee <> Tips <> Baha'i Prayers Links --A--T--H--D
 
I have heard that an Irishman who wanted a shillelegh (spelling?) would cut a likely peice of blackthorn and cover it with butter and set it up the chimney to harden it. Similar to what Yvsa was talking about I guess.
 
Man I don,t know if I,ve got what I need but its given me a lot to think about . That french fry method sounds interesting . After I try my hickory single bevel seax I think I,ll try a bamboo dagger . Maybey I,ll even try the french fry method on the hickory ! MMMM !! ! French fried hickory sticks ! !

You are welcome Monk . I am on another forum trying to learn to weld with road flares . So far no-one is willing to show me how .
 
Kevin, you mentioned that you wanted to make a chopper ~ you do realize that even the firehardened wood won't work for chopping other wood, right? It works ok for hardening wood so that you can make a temporary awl for leather, or a point on an arrow or spear. An edge on a bevel is a whole nuther thing alltogether. Have fun, but don't eat to much french fried bamboo :D
 
I have heard of wooden swords capable of removing appendages . I have seen nice daggers that as a thrusting tool were quite up to the job . I have heard of knives made from melted garbage bags . What I would like is a nice little thorn wood dagger .Thats not happening anytime soon. The one I saw could be considered a work of art .
All I hope for my hickory seax is to teach me a little more about how to make tools from wood . It is going to be a single bevel fairly blunt angled blade . I will try it unhardened on cutting something which will not harm the blade . Then I will harden it and try the same cut again . As this is by hand and two cuts are never the same this is not a scientific test . I will then sharpen the edge a little thinner and harden again . I just want to see the optimum angle and durability of the wood . As for wood chopping wood ? I think technique and skill has a lot to do with it . Even a credit card can do a lot of cutting in the right hands .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top