O.T. Swords and Knives of the Bible.

Yvsa

Yvsa

Joined
May 18, 1999
Messages
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My son who is a Christian is interested in the swords and knives that are mentioned in the Bible.
But not so much he wants to research them himself. Methinks he thinks if he can get old dad to studying them that maybe, just maybe, the old dad will give up his pagan ways.:rolleyes:
Well it is an interesting subject but I'm too ingrained in my beliefs to be changing them back to something I gave up on anyway.;)

I've studied enough to probably think that the Roman Gladius was no doubt the main sword carried in Israel during the time of Christ and was maybe the sword that Peter purportedly drew and cut the soldier's ear off with in the Garden of Gethsemane mentioned in the New Testament?

My son would also like to know what kind of knife Abraham purportedly took with him when he purportedly took Isaac up to the mountain to sacrifice him as well.

In light of the studying I have done in the past the best I can recall there was a huge amount of foriegn travelers passing through Jerusalem yearly and with that said there must have been several dozen, if not more, different styles of swords and knives passing through that area in any given year.
I may have been better off posting this in the general forum but with the amount of Christians in here and those that pass through I thought that I would stand a good chance of getting my questions answered.:D

Another thing that may be interesting is if there were any still made of bronze being carried at that time or if all the blades of the time were iron?
I can't see a perfectly good knife made of bronze being put away if it was still servicable as I imagine blades were maybe, probably, expensive?

So what do y'all think?
What were the Swords and Knives around in Biblical times and where did they originate?
Were there still bronze knives being carried and used?
Surely there were Greek swords around then but I don't know enough about the history of the times to know which ones do y'all.
What other swords and knives may have made their way into the Holy Land back then?
Would the Falcata still have been somewhat common?

See what I mean? Lots of questions about the swords and knives of those times! :eek: :D
 
I have been told that the word "sword" "dagger" and "knife" are often interchanged in the bible owing to linguistic mistranslations and the fact that there were so many different styles and sizes in the time and place.
I was also told that the falcatta probably was a common weapon for civilians.

Khukuris everywhere, baby!
 
I have heard that the Falcatta was an Iberian weapon, and that the Greek version which is very similar is called the "Machaira" (I think; I'm going from memory.)

As far as Abraham and Isaac, I have always mentally pictured him holding a bronzed handled Persian fighter with a curved blade, but that could simply be a 40 year old Sunday School image!

Regards,

Norm
 
The first mention of a blade in the Bible is in Genesis 3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way to the tree of life.

The next mention is more to the point, as Genesis 4 begins with the story of Cain and Abel. Cain is Qayin, which is a smith. Verse 22 And Zillah, she also bore Tubal-cain, the forger of every cutting instrument of brass and iron; and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah. This gives us some information on the metals used, and names the forger of the blades as another Qayin.

This is followed immediately by 23 And Lamech said unto his wives: Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech; for I have slain a man for wounding me, and a young man for bruising me; 24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold. By this time, the use of blades as weapons is pretty clear.
 
Yuh nSuh?

There were mostly Swiss Army Knives back then, but didn't have the toothpick or tweezers. :p
 
What were the Swords and Knives around in Biblical times and where did they originate? Were there still bronze knives being carried and used?
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Well,the Israelites took the Land of the Kanaanites about 1230 B.C.,
the reign of Saul was 1014-1004 B.C., David (1004-965 B.C.) and Salomo (965-926 B.C.)

As the bronze-age in Europe dates 2300-800/750 B.C. it is quite sure that the weapons of Saul, David (and Goliath, the Philister of course) were made of bronze.
During the reign of Octavianus-Augustus (30 B.C - 14 B.C.) the material weapons were made of was iron for sure - but some household-knives might have been made of bronze - as it was cheaper.

As the gladius was the sword of the superior Roman army, the Zelot-movement was feared because of their skill with daggers - I do however not know what kind of dagger this could be.

Bye
Andreas
 
Yvsa,

Did you tell him about the old Tsalagi weapons? Those old obsidian daggers are still the sharpest around. ;)
 
Thanks guys.:D
I guess my son has done some research as I received this in one of his emails...;)
"My knife research has discovered that the Bible uses a greek word (New Testament) for knife that leads me to a "machaira". It looks to me to be a type of kukri. As best as I can tell, it was 1872 B.C. when Abraham took Isaac up to Mt. Moriah. I believe that this is during the Bronze Age."

So it appears that the Machaira was a fairly common weapon back then.
Wasn't the Kopis the forerunner of the Machaira and didn't it originate in Greece? Or did Alexander bring it over the Alps with him?
And if Abraham took a Machaira along with him to do Isaac in with I wonder what method of sacrifice they were doing back then.
I always envisioned the Abraham would've taken something along to cut Isaac's heart out with instead of something to behead him with.:rolleyes:

I had never really thought about the different metal ages that happened over the time in the history of that era but it is interesting along with the variety of knives used. I'm betting a man could study on this subject for a lifetime and still not know all there is too know about the subject. ainnit?;)

No Dawi, I didn't tell him about the old Tsalagi obsidian knives.;)
Speaking of obsidian knives though... There is a picture in my Times/Life ndn books showing a couple of Northwestern ndns with a couple of HUGE obsidian daggers! They look like they would cut a man in half and I'll bet they would've.:eek:
 
Lemme get out the "geek" concordance...

In the New Testament two Greek words were translated into sword

machaira - a knife or dirk

rhomphaia - a sabre ie. a long and broad cutlass

Peter was packing a machaira in the garden of Gethsemane.

I guess a GooGoo search might turn up some pics of these. I didn't look at the Old Testament though. I probably should but I need food.

Well.. a googoo search didn't turn up much. Machaira turned up a few pics of the Cold Steel Gurkee nife. :confused:

Good machairas are just hard to come by nowadays. :rolleyes:


There's a page with some figurines...

Thracian Peltasts bare chested with Romphia

http://www.brookhursthobbies.com/images/xyston/18226.jpg


Someone's version of a machaira

http://www.thesteelsource.com/html/mr500730.htm

Dunno if these are proper image renderings though. Remember... it's from the internet.
 
Yvsa said:
My knife research has discovered that the Bible uses a greek word (New Testament) for knife that leads me to a "machaira". It looks to me to be a type of kukri. As best as I can tell, it was 1872 B.C. when Abraham took Isaac up to Mt. Moriah. I believe that this is during the Bronze Age."]
Click to expand...

From the time of Abraham to Jesus time according to the above would be almost 1900 years. Plenty of time for knife technologies to change. So to find out what blade ol' Abe was packing, you have to look up the Hebrew word found in Genesis...

maakeleth - something to eat with, ie a knife.

Doesn't give much detail but you would have to look at museum pieces for that area and time period and look for general utensils for a better idea of what he was packin'.


:confused:
 
You also have to note that the Bible wasn't written down until hundred of years after the fact. It was written using the language and examples at that time, not when the events may have happened. Not to mention all the liberties taken with translations over the years.
 
Wasn't the Kopis the forerunner of the Machaira and didn't it originate in Greece? Or did Alexander bring it over the Alps with him?
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I do not know if the kopis was the forerunner of the machira - but I know Alexander never was even near the alps (but he would not have to cross the alps to reach Palestine from his kingdom of Macedonia). It was Hannibal who crossed the alps during the war with Rome (Punian/Punic (?) wars).

Andreas
 
Pan Tau said:
I do not know if the kopis was the forerunner of the machira - but I know Alexander never was even near the alps (but he would not have to cross the alps to reach Palestine from his kingdom of Macedonia). It was Hannibal who crossed the alps during the war with Rome (Punian/Punic (?) wars).

Andreas
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Thanks for the correction Andreas. I may actually learn something from this discussion.;) :D
:rolleyes: :o See, I told y'all I was never good in history. :o :rolleyes:

But with what Andreas has said what type of weaponry in the form of swords and knives would Hannibal have brought over the Alps?
And let's see, wasn't Hannibal the one who used elephants in his wars?
Where was Macedonia located and what type of swords and knives were used there?

I just cannot begin too imagine the difficulties in supplying forage and food for that many men and animals in some of those areas in ancient times let alone shelter of some kind!:eek:
I have often said that the generations of men before our present day age were much, much, stronger than us in many ways.
Slightly off topic but still on the same subject when the Philbrook Museum here in Tulsa put on the display of the
Winged Warriors of poland I was very impressed at the full suit of armor the Polish king at the time owned and wore into battle. He wasn't a tall man but he must have been incredibley strong to have been able to wear that kind of armor and actually fight in it!:eek:
The armor may have been exaggerated in the muscularity of the king but in light of the weight and the endurance one would have had to have I wonder...

But back to the subject.. I also wonder at the frequency that bronze weaponry went up against iron weaponry and wonder if the iron was really that superior or if tactics and logistics didn't play a large part in the decisiveness of a battle?
 
Yvsa said:
But back to the subject.. I also wonder at the frequency that bronze weaponry went up against iron weaponry and wonder if the iron was really that superior or if tactics and logistics didn't play a large part in the decisiveness of a battle?
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Yvsa, I'm no expert, but I don't think there was any contest. Isn't bronze essentially soft copper hardened with tin? The iron was heavier and denser and held a better edge, and I think would quickly outclass the bronze weapons. That's just what I get from my reading, and I am certainly willing to be corrected.

Regards,

Norm
 
But with what Andreas has said what type of weaponry in the form of swords and knives would Hannibal have brought over the Alps? And let's see, wasn't Hannibal the one who used elephants in his wars?
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Hannibal crossed the alps coming from Spain, where the Carthagians had a colony an crossed the alps from Tarascon (near Arles, France) following the river Durance and later mountain-paths maybe over the Montgenevre (or the Col de la Traversette) to Torino (Italy) he tried to surprise the Romans. His army had several (I think 34) war-elephants with it - but only one survived the the battle of Trebbia (218 B.C.), the crossing of the alps and the hard winter.

Hannibals army consisted of some 12 000 africans (Carthagians, Lybo-Phönicians, Numidians and Mercenaries - some from Europe - from the Ligurian coast, Celts - some from northern Africa), and about 8000 Spaniards (there was cavallery and infantry, including the slingshot-troops from the Baleares) when he reached Italy (he had started with about 38 000). The Spaniards brought the falcata for sure and the gladius hispaniensis (the straight gladius) Some of the falcatas found had a curved by-knife. Here are some pics of archeological finds from Peter Conollys Book about "Hannibal and Rome´s enemies".
Spanish weapons of the 4th-2nd century B.C.


Their shields were of the large celtic type. I do not have much information about the african parts of the army at hand, but they should have had the typical Hellenistic equipment (thrakian helmet, round shield, sarissa and light body armor - the numidian cavallery had no armor at all)

Where was Macedonia located and what type of swords and knives were used there?
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Macendonia, Alexander´s and his father´s Phillip´s kingdom was in the north-east of Greece, not too far from the Cyclades (these are the small peninsulas looking like a hand streching into the Aegean Sea). They used the greek kopis and the sarissa, a spear of about 5-7 meters lengh to form the phananx.

hope this helps a bit - as you may guess ancient history is one of my hobbies and part of my profession. :) however I am not a specialist on details.

Andreas
 
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