O1 Soak time, and canola oil quench temp.

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chriswillman

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Okay guys, I am working on a knife from O1 tool steel that is 1/8th thick and 9 inches long. I am just starting to grind it out, so I am asking ahead of time. I am using a break drum forge so colors, and a pen magnet are my temperature gauge. I am using a 5 gallon bucket of canola as my quench oil. I usually use this website as my guide for heat treating http://cashenblades.com/steel/ . I figured it would be best to ask about soak time for something as small as a knife. I will usually do 3 cycles of normalizing before the quench. You do not need to soak for the normalizing, correct? Is the stress reliving cycles needed? Or would it be easier for me to just avoid it on my first time heat treating o1. If not does stress relieving come before or after normalization cycles? How long should I leave it in the forge to soak after it won't stick to a magnet? My forge burns coal, and is powered by a hair dryer on low. Should I warm up my canola before the quench? If so how warm, I have a thermometer on the side of the bucket, and I usually just hold a mapp gas torch to the side to heat it up. Thank you. I tried to provide as many details as possible, the only other good one would be that I'm only 16 and a bladesmith... well maybe I haven't quite earned the name yet. So far I have made a few from 1084, and just got a new camera, so maybe I'll upload some pics. My problem is once I get them tempered, and sharpened I call it finished, and never put a handle on them lol.
 
OK, there are a couple things i stick in before kevin, mete and others dive in. you do not need to do normalizing for ground blades. it is just for forged blades. as far as soak time goes, you should do about 5-10 minutes after you hit non-magnetic. Most steels that require a soak time are not recommended for homemade forges without temp gauges, but since you have already started, then we will roll with it. Get your canola up to about 130 degrees. good luck.

one more thing. NEVER sharen before you put the handle on. that is a great way to get yourself cut.
 
it will take forever to heat 5gal of canola to 130deg, and you DO need it to be heated. It doesn't take that much quenchant to do a single blade.

I have not been doing serious soaking with O1 with ok-for-me results, but no deterministic testing so YMMV. I've been using a torch in a 2-brick forge, heating to non-magnetic, then pushing it a bit, then quenching in pre-heated canola.

-Daizee
 
Pretty much what the GEEK said. To get the best out of 01, it needs to soak at around 1475° for a good 20 minutes. You are not going to able to do this with what you now have. You have no way to regulate the heat. Steel goes non-magnetic at 1414°, so you will have to judge the extra heat needed, which would be, about two shades of red hotter, roughly a red-orange. I don't see you being able to soak at that level very long without some variance, but if you eer, try and let it be on the low side. In your situation, I'd say just try for between 5 and 10 minutes, then quench in the warmed oil as Geek said. Get your oil up to 130° using a candy thermometer. Canola may be a wee bit fast for 01, but you might as well try it. If it warps, which is probable, immediately hand straighten with gloves on. You have, maybe a 5 minute window, or a tad longer. Let it cool to room temp, and file check. Chances are, the file may scratch it a bit, but keep filing that spot, and you should find the steel below the surface will stop the scratching. Heating as you will have to do, may easily cause a little decarb for a few thousandths deep. Temper at 425°, to 450°, in your kitchen oven, using an oven thermometer as a guide, for 2 hours twice. As long as your blade is red-orange, in dim light, when you quench, and the canola causes no cracking, you will have at the least, a usable blade. Not the best for 01, but it will be very usable. It may even greatly impress you, but 01 is even better when done really correct.
 
LRB said:
Pretty much what the GEEK said. To get the best out of 01, it needs to soak at around 1475° for a good 20 minutes.
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This is the first time I've heard 20 min soak time for 01, I'm by far no expert but iirc everything I read/heard has always been 10 mins.. guess longer couldn't hurt now could it..
 
Chris:
with what you got try putting a pipe in the forge and pile the coals up on it. Place a bit of charcoal or wood in the pipe to consume the oxygen in the pipe to reduce the scale. put the blade in the pipe with the point facing the open end of the pipe as this is the thinnest part of the blade and overheats first. This makes it harder to pull the blade out to check with the magnet but will give you a much more even controllable heat. The real trick is to stay in the zone you want so slow heat is better than quick. Cheers Ron.
 
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Battle Creek Knives said:
This is the first time I've heard 20 min soak time for 01, I'm by far no expert but iirc everything I read/heard has always been 10 mins.. guess longer couldn't hurt now could it..
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10 minutes, once at temp I would think to be fine enough, but I like to be sure the temp has leveled off well and the blade has had time to absorb the heat evenly and disperse the carbon as well as possible. Doing three at a time, my last blade out will have closer to 30 minutes of soak. Using some form of good decarb protection, 01 can soak without harm for hours. I think Chris would be lucky to reach 5 minutes of soak at temp with what he has to work with, but he should still get a usable blade. As long as he doesn't over heat it.
 
I will try it soon, the reason I wanted to use the O1 in the first place is because I heard it was so good. I have two 1/8 thick 9 inch long by 1 inch wide knife blanks, and since they are already only one inch wide they are a lot easier to grind into my favorite puukko style blade quickly without using my angle grinder on my 1084 for a while to get it into shape. Most of my knives are used as bushcraft knives, and I plan on making some drawknives, and other woodworking tools from 1095 in the future for bowmaking which is my other hobbie. So I do not need to do normalizing on 1084 or 1095 if it is ground out?
 
you do not need to normalize if you do not forge. period. also, I would stay away from 1095. it has the same problems as O1 as far as the soak goes, and there is just not that much improvement over 1084.
 
thegeek574 said:
you do not need to normalize if you do not forge. period. also, I would stay away from 1095. it has the same problems as O1 as far as the soak goes, and there is just not that much improvement over 1084.
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I'm haven't used much 1095 but I would normalize it, probably 3 times.

I would stick with 1084 or another simple carbon steel without a controlled heat treat setup.

A long soak time is beneficial to O1, you really want at least 10 minutes but 20 is better.

...all just my opinion, there is a lot to this.
 
All steels benefit from a soak, some more than others, and for some, a soak is crucial. It is the alloyed steels that need relatively long soaks, such as 01, A-2, D-2, and so on, but even 1075/80/84 will get some extra benefit. THE GEEK is probably correct as to not normalizing stock removal, but if it were me, I would harden a test piece and break it to see the grain size. Just to make myself feel more comfortable about skipping the process, but a stress relieveing heat may help prevent a lot of possible warping. Even stock removal causes stresses, but I would think a series of below non-magnetic heats, at around 1250°, or a little more would do it, or perhaps a single soak for maybe a few minutes. Once again though, a lengthy single soak might be difficult for Chris to do, given what he has to work with.
 
I thought soak times were generally specified (by the steel mfr) as minutes per inch of thickness. That would indicate a much shorter soak than 10-20min for most knives.

-Daizee
 
You do not need to normalize a stock removal blade IF you are absolutely sure it was annealed properly from the source you purchased it from. If you purchased Hot Rolled as Rolled then you must normalize. It will not hurt to do a normalize just to make sure and have full control over the heat treat process. Soak times are good and it does not hurt to soak a little longer just to make sure it is all up to temp and all carbides have been dissolved properly.
 
To heat 5 gallons of canola oil take a large piece of mild steel heat it in the forge or oven to 1500f. Drop it in the quench tank and it will come up to temp real fast. I have about a 4 gallon tank. I can bring the whole thing up to 130f with 3 or 4 rr spikes heated as described.
 
Chris... You are using a simple forge and are limited to a simple heat treat process. O1 will work but you won't pull it's full potential with an open forge and magnets. In the future, try to choose a steel to match your means (1070-1084... 1084 being ideal.) That said, you can still make a good knife using a coal forge with O1. Like most have said, Normalizing shouldn't be a major concern if you are a stock remover but I would still run a cycle or two to relieve any stress induced from grinding. Heat to non-magnetic and let it cool to about 450F in still air.(paper ignites at 451F, so use that as a signpost.... no flames = below 450F) Forget about soak times completely. Your blade can jump from non-magnetic(1414F) to well over 1500F in less than a minute. Once your magnet stops sticking, give a 10 count and quench. It is better to risk not reaching full hard than to over heat and get grain growth. Chuck is right, you can get canola to temp pretty fast with a few hot pieces of steel.

**Edit**
The ignition point of paper is 451F not 500F... I'm pretty sure I knew that at some point and would like to be able to say I was just generalizing but the loss of a few brain cells is more likely the culprit, here.:D Thanks for pointing out my faults... you know who you are.:grumpy:
 
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What is the best way to heat your oil? I am trying to use a 4 inch pipe filled with oil (pipe is vertical, welded to a base plate). Will this work?

Any suggestions appreciated.
 
winn2011,
Welcome to Shop Talk.
This is a three year old thread. Try not to bring up old threads...it is called necroposting.

To heat up your oil, heat a 3/4" round bar ( or any bar with some mass) to red and stick it in the oil tank. Stir around for a minute with the bar to transfer the heat. Repeat as needed to bring the oil to 130F or whatever temp you want. The oil will remain at a suitable temperature for a while. I have a round bar with a 2X2X3" block of steel welded on the end to heat the oil. The cheap $10 HF laser pyrometers are fine for checking the oil temp. They are useless for checking hot steel, but read oil accurately enough.
 
Hey all, been catching up here. I bought some 01 because i heard it was a beginner steel. Well, after some research i find this to be untrue. Since i want the best i can get out of my steel, i made a heat treat oven. So far my ht oven is working pretty well, may have to wrap it in kao wool to hold more heat. My controller actuates more then i would like. Temp swung is about 15-20°. 5° high and 10-15° low.
I am getting ready to ht my first knife from 01.
I have read that you should heat this up to 1000-1200° and soak for 10 minutes, then ramp up to 1450-1500° and soak for 10-20 minutes. Is this accurate or do i just need to go to quench temp? I set my oven at 1475° and plan to hild there for 20min.
 
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