Of the "Better" Steels, Which is the Easiest to Sharpen?

RDaneel

RDaneel

Joined
Apr 23, 2000
Messages
5,501
Taking into account optimum heat treat, hardness for the steel, etc. I'm just curious what folks think. I was recently surprised by how easy Benchmade's current 154 CM was to sharpen.

Thanks for your opinions.

Dean
 
no experience, but if 1095 falls into your categories i've heard very easy sharpenability. Good topic.
Pete
 
Carbon steels are generally a little easier to sharpen than stainless, all else being equal, in my experience. Diamond hones, though, have made sharpening stainless a lot easier. AUS8 stainless sharpens more easily than VG-10, but doesn't hold an edge as well. Carbon V, 1095 and 52100 carbon steels are very easy to sharpen in comparison to stainless and respond well to steeling, too.
 
I'm no steel Guru, however I own quite a few knives. The range of steel they are made from varies. I like D2 and 1095. 1095 needs a little more care than my D2 from what I've noticed, but I can sharpen either one of these on the edge of the window of my truck if necessary. This usually doesn't happen to me because I carry some type of sharpening stone wherever I go. The window will not do a great job but if done only for a touch up it does work.
 
I have a problem with the term "better" steel since better implies something other than "better" for some particular purpose. Unless you state the purpose, I don't think the term is appropriate. Sorry for the lecture but it's one of the real problems I see in steel discussions on the forum.

I do think it is a positive step, though, that Benchmade appears to have decided to temper the 154CM to a softer result than is usual for 154CM. That will make it tougher as well as easier to sharpen.

Most of the currently fashionable high tech steels are pretty hard and, therefore, hard to sharpen. VG-10 is a good compromise as an example and proves to show a pretty high level of toughness. I find 440C and AUS8 to be pretty reasonable in terms of sharpenability. The best, though, would be any of the carbon steels. For the most part they are easier to sharpen than any stainless suitable for use in cutlery. Take care.



------------------
Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
Fred,

I agree with where you are coming from; that's why I but "better" in quotes.
smile.gif
I was really just trying to open up the discussion.

I find VG-10 very easy to sharpen. What prompted this post though was the results I got sharpening 154 CM. Surprised me how easy it was. As it is ATS-34's cousin/brother, I thought it would be similar. But it seems easier to sharpen.

Thanks for the replies so far.

Dean
 
Must be that old ornery character Heet Treet sticking his nose in again. I know I've read more than once in magazines, that despite the virtually identical composition of ATS34 and 154CM, that makers find the ATS34 to be softer than the 154CM. Use more belts, etc on 154CM, and they say it holds an edge a tad better. Go figure.

------------------
Asi es la vida

Bugs
 
Ease of sharpening is highly dependent on the suitability of the steel for the type of knife and the edge geometry. While there are large changes in machinability among the various steels, the effect this makes is not of the same magnitude.

I have used and sharpened often some of the worst steels from a machinability point of view. However the steels were well suited to the type of knife and the edge geometry was optimal as well, sharpening was very easy.

For example, CPM-10 left very hard with a full cryo, on a light use knife ground to a very thin edge at an acute angle. The edge resists deformation to such a degree that it lasts a long time and a few passes on a Diamond steel from time to time will keep it in service at 100% for quite awhile.

When it comes to require a full sharpening, as you can now see the additional bevel the Diamond steel has made, because there is no chipping and only slight wear, and as well the edge is very narrow, a few passes will clear the edge back to 100% with very little stone loading.

The exact same steel and blade would not fare very well at all in a kitchen knife. The edge would suffer damage from corrosion, and as well see chips from impacts/scraping (unless used very carefully). As well a common kitchen sharpening tool, the butchers steel would not do much at all in terms of restoring the edge as for example compared to 420HC.

So for that role, 420HC sharpens easier. However swap roles again and now use the 420HC blade for the light use utility knife and it becomes much harder to sharpen than the 10V as the edge will roll, wear and impact more significantly, and require much more frequent grinding to a much greater extent.

-Cliff
 
Even if blades have a thin profile you can really tell a difference in how hard they are to sharpen (if you work on blades that have been allowed to get seriously dull). My generalization is that really high molybdenum and vanadium content makes it harder to remove material with a hone. The CPM alloys and vascowear with very high vanadium content are difficult to sharpen, but take a fine edge when you get there.

High chromium content slows down sharpening and can make it hard to get a very fine edge. I find 440C to be slow to sharpen given its modest content in moly and vanadium. If the blade is well heat treated and cryo'd it is easier to work with.

154CM has a lot of chrome and moly. It sounds like Benchmade's newer heat treatment has improved sharpenability.

One of the things that can really make a difference is using a diamond abrasive hone. This not only makes the job go faster, it also gives a better edge on the blades with harder alloying elements.
 
Oddly enough, the easiest knife for me to sharpen is my Buck 110 in BG-42. The grind matches up perfectly to the 30 degree bevel setting on my SharpMaker 204. It doesn't dull easily, but only takes a couple swipes to bring it back to full ferocity.

In contrast, the 154CM Camillus EDC is my nemesis. It can get the recurve portion of the blade sharpened, but the tip keeps dulling out on me when I use the SharpMaker. I've started using my Lansky diamond system for the EDC. The Lansky doesn't get the knife quite as sharp, but the edge is much more uniform.
 
M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2
M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2
M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2
M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2
M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2
M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2
M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2
M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2
M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2
M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2 M2

Just in case you missed it! M2!
biggrin.gif


------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
I take kind of a different approach to the ease of sharpening question. I like steels that hit the sweet spot between being easy to sharpen and holding an edge. With that said, I like 52100 in carbon steel, and VG-10 in stainless. To me, they seem to have the nicest balance between both qualities.
 
I recently bought a Mini AFCK in M2. With DMT hones, I suddenly became a sharpening genius. Has anyone else had the same results with M2?
 
TALONITE! The Talonite blade of my DC Munroe Chimera takes the wickedest edge I've ever seen, and it takes so little effort to obtain S3 (Scary Scalpel Sharpness) with my Spyderco Sharpmaker.
Tom Mayo, where are you when we need you??
I like 154cm and ATS34 and BG42 and...... the list goes on. But I've never been able to get any other steel as sharp as I can get Talonite.
 
Heat treat is what I was talking about. Usually, 154CM and it's cousin ATS-34 are usually hardened to RC 59 or 60. That makes a pretty hard and brittle blade that will hold an edge longer than most but is hard to sharpen and lacks toughness. Benchmade has apparently decided to temper down the hardness to some lower level. That makes the blade a little softer, a little less brittle, a little less able to hold an edge and easier to sharpen. I think it's a positive thing, actually, in a way.

It would have been easier and cheaper simply to choose a different steel than 154CM, though. 154CM and ATS34 aren't particularly corrosion resistant. It seems a little silly to temper this kind of steel down to a hardness that a more stainless steel such as 440C normally occupies. It just goes to show you how important fashion is in selecting blade steels. It's more important than actually selecting the more appropriate steel for the desired parameters.

In other words, 154CM is cool. We want it to perform more like 440C so we'll just heat treat it to get there. Who cares if 440C would provide some advantages. I just chose 440C as an example. It may not be a very good one. I'm no steel expert. It is a very interesting situation to me, though. It really is a market guided by fashion. Few people outside the knife industry would appreciate that.

------------------
Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
Jeff Clark:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Even if blades have a thin profile you can really tell a difference in how hard they are to sharpen (if you work on blades that have been allowed to get seriously dull).</font>
Click to expand...

Well yes, steels have different rates of material removal. However this difference is swamped out by other issues. As an example, machinability changes by about a a factor of three from 1095 to M42. M42 is one of the worse steels to grind, it is a high moly, tungsten, and vanadium high speed steel.

However issues with geometry and sutability can easily cause differences in grinding of much larger than that. A factor of 10 is easily possible and I have seen far worse than that. I have seen 1095 blades that were much harder to sharpen than 420V blades.

With a suitable grind, on the correct blade design, even the worst steels will be taken from very dull to above 75% on a few passes on a Diamond rod (after steeling). And a complete resharpening to 100% if desired will only be about 25 passes or so per side on a large Diamond hone. A much easier to work steel would require less grinding (at the same level of dullness), so you are looking at a time of 1-2 minutes to 5-7, from say 1095 to 10V.

If it is taking longer than that to sharpen a blade then either you are not working at the angle the blade is sharpened at, or there is serious damage to the edge, by corrosion and/or fracture and/or deformation. And that is where geometry and blade suitability come into play. If such is the case, then there was a problem in the design or the steel choice.

As well, it is the "at the same level of dullness" that is critical. Look at it from the point of view of how much work do I need to do on the blade as a function of how much cutting work the blade does. This makes the better edge retention steels a better alternative, assuming they have the necessary durability, which again is where geometry and blade suitability come into play.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">One of the things that can really make a difference is using a diamond abrasive </font>
Click to expand...

Well yes, if you are using an abrasive that is not significantly harder than the carbides in the steel, then you are making like much more difficult than it needs to be as the wear is going to go opposite the way you want it to go.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 06-19-2001).]
 
The two easiest (stainless that is) I have found that still will hold an edge are:

BG-42 and 440a.

[This message has been edited by bob_glassman (edited 06-19-2001).]
 
I guess I should break down and answer the original question. I find BG42, VG-10, and 52100 easy to sharpen for their performance level.

To respond to Cliff's comments:

"With a suitable grind, on the correct blade design, even the worst steels will be taken from very dull to above 75% on a few passes on a Diamond rod (after steeling). And a complete resharpening to 100% if desired will only be about 25 passes or so per side on a large Diamond hone. A much easier to work steel would require less grinding (at the same level of dullness), so you are looking at a time of 1-2 minutes to 5-7, from say 1095 to 10V.

If it is taking longer than that to sharpen a blade then either you are not working at the angle the blade is sharpened at, or there is serious damage to the edge, by corrosion and/or fracture and/or deformation. And that is where geometry and blade suitability come into play. If such is the case, then there was a problem in the design or the steel choice."

I'd say that Cliff is used to very new knives and/or knives owned by knife knuts. In the general world I often encounter knives that have not been sharpened for 10 or 20 years. There is not a problem with them being used outside of the bounds of the material's applicability. They are just plain dull!! The edge bevel is a distant memory so there is no issue of tracking the original grind. Knives like this don't need 5-7 minutes of honing. I've found kitchen knives that take up to 15 minutes on a belt sander before I start normal honing. Given the relatively thin stock of a kitchen knife there is a world of difference between a generic Japanese knife made of "molybdenum stainless" and a MAC knife that is essentially made from AUS-8. An old Randall made from O1 is a lot easier to sharpen than an old no-name made from something in the 440 series. The difference runs up to 5x the time spent on a "difficult" steel.

 
Jeff Clark:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The edge bevel is a distant memory so there is no issue of tracking the original grind. </font>
Click to expand...

Yes, of course, if you have to create an actual edge bevel then it will take you much longer than a few minutes. On a hone this could easily be hours, even with a very aggressive abrasive, 80 grit SiC lapping compound.

Fact is, it is even worse than that. If there is that much wear on the blade (10+ years of use), you can't just create an edge bevel because if you did the profile would be far too thick. Unless the primary grind is a deep hollow, you are going to want to work a little on the primary grind.

However this is more along the lines of restoring a knife than sharpening it, and far from the situations that questions on sharpening are addressing. You would take a month to do this with the Sharpmaker for example, yes it is one of the most often recommended "sharpeners".

As noted in the above, using the correct abrasives, assuming correct geometry and design, sharpening even a really dull knife (~1-2% of NIB cutting ability), is only a few minutes of work even on the worse steel.

In regards to my experience with heavy use knives, I have reconditioned many old knives. Kitchen knives with 40+ years of service, a chefs knife steeled that much it has wore into a fillet blade for example.

On something like that I will usually lower the primary bevel and restore the secondary. This will take quite some time, mainly to insure that the blade doesn't overheat.

Same thing with restoring old and/or abused woodworking tools, chisels for example that have been used to cut wire. You might have to move the bevel back as much as 1/8" which takes a very long time.

However as I said, I really don't consider that "sharpening" as it is far too extreme a case, far beyond the situations that questions on sharpening are meant to addressed. These usually mean "when my knife gets dull, how do I restore it", not "I have worn the entire edge bevel off of my knife, how do I regrind it".

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 06-19-2001).]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top